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  1. #41  
    But then again....if you are talking about the answers to Prayers.....what if the answer was "No, it is time son". Does that show it didn't work or that the answer was just not we hoped it would be.
  2. #42  
    I pray for a new car, and so far...nothing
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I pray for a new car, and so far...nothing
    you could always walk and get some real exercise outside
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I pray for a new car, and so far...nothing
    Just take your own advice and get it the same way KRamsauer is going to get his exercise equipment
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by dutchtrumpet
    you could always walk and get some real exercise outside
    Nahh...I still have my Jeep, and my bike. I just wanted a new car
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  6. #46  
    Humorous observation:
    Quote Originally Posted by the article
    The researchers enlisted 12 congregations of various Christian denominations, Jews, Muslims and Buddhists around the world to pray for some of the patients, giving them names, ages and descriptions of the illness.
    Did the researchers have measures in place to verify that the conflicting belief systems did not cancel each other out?
  7. #47  
    Related cartoon on page 28 of the following:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...S_07182005.pdf
  8. #48  
    Even with the results of this study I pray for Slim Shady daily to stop damaging his hair with bleach products!
  9. #49  
    I believe that all of this was in response to a very controversial study at Columbia University that showed that prayer helped infertile couples conceive. That study caused a big uproar at the time, and has since been discredited, and at least one of the authors of the study has removed his association from the study.

    My guess is that the scientists in the study referred to in this thread tried to replicate the Columbia results, as usually happens in the scientific method.

    The following is one article about the Columbia study. You can find others on both sides of the fence using Google.

    http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-09/miracle-study.html
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by dutchtrumpet
    Nothing...I just think you're a kook. Kooks are funny. I find it funny that you feel the need to share this "scientific study".

    I find it funny when someone spews radical religious beliefs. I find extremes to be kooky. In my view by reading your posts...I believe you to be extreme and a kook and I laugh at your silliness.

    have fun

    I did say a prayer before posting this...but a scientific study has shown...kooks will be kooks
    No more a kook than those who feel the need to share political articles that support whatever extreme position they happen to believe, or those who post about the "persecution" Christians face in America, etc., etc. Like it or not, the Off-Topic forum on these boards has become a lightning rod for all sorts of beliefs. If you don't like it, don't read this forum.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    No more a kook than those who feel the need to share political articles that support whatever extreme position they happen to believe, or those who post about the "persecution" Christians face in America, etc., etc. Like it or not, the Off-Topic forum on these boards has become a lightning rod for all sorts of beliefs. If you don't like it, don't read this forum.
    relax... I admitted I came on too strong. You ever do that
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by dutchtrumpet
    relax... I admitted I came on too strong. You ever do that
    Uh...me? No...never.
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  13. #53  
    I confess that I am amazed at the number of non-believers who frequent this forum -- and the depth of mutual tolerance shown by believers and non-believers to one another.

    (Hopefully my past dark humour about religion is not entirely unforgivable by those I've offended.)

    Regarding this study, it attempts to apply scientific methodology and logic to something that is inherently anti-empirical and illogical: a belief in a transcendental supreme being.

    The majority of americans believe that that supreme being sent his only son to sacrifice himself for the sake of humanity (Others hold to the idea that Allah was the supreme being’s true messenger -– hundreds of other faiths have their own version of this fable.)

    Thinking believers are not faithful because of logic but despite it -- belief is at the core of their existence, it gives meaning to everything they experience – it allows them to overcome personal tragedy, and be inspired by power that they feel comes from outside themselves.

    Logic though, is inherently antithetical to faith. So this study won't mean anything to those who believe in prayer.
    Last edited by BARYE; 07/20/2005 at 02:26 AM. Reason: (spelling)
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  14. #54  
    The way I see it is that if a supreme being does exist, and wanted its existence to NOT remain a mystery, it would have made things quite clear for ALL of us a long time ago. See, there is a delicate balance between everything and a purpose for every single thing that does and does not exist in this universe. Some of these things are just not meant to be understood by us, for reasons that are not meant to be understood by us.

    I'd also like to add that, science is not absolute truth, it's just another perspective of our universe that attempts in it's own way to be deeper, more definitive, and much more clear. The two perspectives often step on each other's toes because they are both born from the same area of the mind... the same universal human drive creates the need for these perspectives, but no one can claim either one to be any closer to the truth than the other. For all we know both could be as plausible as they are, yet be entirely false.

    The bottom line is that we as humans clearly have a need to rationalize our feelings, senses, and experiences. We each do it in the way that suits us best for us to carry on life with internal homeostasis. Please, leave others at peace with their beliefs and just remain confident in your own. If no one can change your own beliefs but you, what makes you think you can change someone else's?
    .
  15. #55  
    I think that's the point though.

    "If no one can change your own beliefs but you, what makes you think you can change someone else's?"

    What if my views are still being formed? I know that I don't know everything so I try to keep an open mind...Im guessing at least some small percentage of people still do. Why else would we always question and debate what we think we know if we didn't want to influence others or have ourselves be influenced? ;-)
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  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho

    What if my views are still being formed? I know that I don't know everything so I try to keep an open mind...Im guessing at least some small percentage of people still do. Why else would we always question and debate what we think we know if we didn't want to influence others or have ourselves be influenced? ;-)
    SOME want to debate, argue, test, explore -- most do not.

    How many evangelical devotees to any particular "religion" --whether it be the GOP, Christianity, Islam or the Eagles -- want genuinely to have doubt introduced into their hearts ??

    A TRUE faith is a comfort, a bringer of certainly, an enabler to commit unspeakable barbarity. It provides the confidence that the supreme being blesses their righteus path.

    A true faith is also a resolver of doubt, a shelter from fears, an explainer of unknowable mysteries.

    With only a little irony, I confess to sometimes being envious of the certainty that the faithful possess.

    I am a logical non-believer because I could be no other way -- but its not a path that I feel most can or should walk.
    Last edited by BARYE; 07/20/2005 at 02:53 AM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Regarding this study, it attempts to apply scientific methodology and logic to something that is inherently anti-empirical and illogical: a belief in a transcendental supreme being.
    I don't agree with this point (but with most of the rest of your post).

    In religion, there are statements which cannot be tested scientifically. The belief in life after death, the resurrection of Jesus, and others fall into this category. Other claims, however, can be verified or falsified: the belief that earth is 6000 or so years old, that the whole earth was covered by water a few thousand years ago, and others.

    Many people claim or believe that intercessory prayer helps people recover from illness faster - faster than without prayer. This is a claim that can be tested just like the claim that drug A works better than drug B or no drug at all - the standard procedure in drug development.

    Maybe one could say that it is not fair to assess the efficacy of prayer, but then one also has to add that it was the "religious" side who started the whole thing and published several studies allegedly showing that prayer indeed DOES help those prayed for. The problem with those studies was that they were deeply flawed and the methods used did not meet basic scientific standards, they were pseudo-scientific. One of the most famous examples turned out to be a downright fraud (see review here, already quoted above). Several other studies (like the one mentioned at the beginning of this thread) , using more sound methods, did not show efficacy of "intercessory prayer" when compared to "no prayer".

    I don't think the studies which showed prayer no effect of prayer prove that there is no god or anything. But one should also not use pseudoscientific methods and flawed studies in an attempt to prove prayer helps.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  18. #58  
    I agree with most of what you wrote as well.

    (BTW -- I added several lines to my earlier post before I saw that you had already responded)

    "Many people claim or believe that intercessory prayer helps people recover from illness faster - faster than without prayer. This is a claim that can be tested just like the claim that drug A works better than drug B or no drug at all - the standard procedure in drug development."


    The study demonstrated that 3rd party prayer is entirely ineffective at curing a strangers illness.

    The act of sitting by the bed of a loved one and praying COULD have beneficial effects, of course. And I would accept it if a believer declared how prayer enabled them to overcome smoking or to successfully diet, or even to recover from cancer.

    I can recognize how a prayer for a lost parent, or for the healing of their sickened child is of inestimatable comfort.

    Because I've never experienced combat I cannot report on whether the theory about there being no atheists in foxholes is true -- but I can well imagine wanting to pray to god to save me save me please -- if I was under fire.


    "I don't think the studies which showed prayer no effect of prayer prove that there is no god or anything. But one should also not use pseudoscientific methods and flawed studies in an attempt to prove prayer helps."


    It is very hard to prove anything when it comes to matters of faith. So yes, just because 3rd party prayer has no measurable effect does not necessarily prove that there is no god.

    But it at least illustrates the difference between when prayer is used by an individual for himself or his loved one (when there can be clear psychological benefits) -- versus when prayer is presented as kind of walkie talkie to the supreme being.
    Last edited by BARYE; 07/20/2005 at 03:45 AM.
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