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  1.    #1  
    We are all more than aware of the threats from Iran and NK.....but how much of a threat does China hold against the US? They have the man power. They have the Nuke Power. They have the (debatable) Economic Power. We are waiting to see if we have confirmed their Military Power. And now they may soon have the Oil Power.

    But with all this in mind, read the following:

    Chinese General Threatens Use of A-Bombs if U.S. Intrudes

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/in...a/15china.html

    (since this site requires a registration I quoted the whole thing below)

    BEIJING, Friday, July 15 - China should use nuclear weapons against the United States if the American military intervenes in any conflict over Taiwan, a senior Chinese military official said Thursday.

    "If the Americans draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to the target zone on China's territory, I think we will have to respond with nuclear weapons," the official, Maj. Gen. Zhu Chenghu, said at an official briefing.

    General Zhu, considered a hawk, stressed that his comments reflected his personal views and not official policy. Beijing has long insisted that it will not initiate the use of nuclear weapons in any conflict.

    But in extensive comments to a visiting delegation of correspondents based in Hong Kong, General Zhu said he believed that the Chinese government was under internal pressure to change its "no first use" policy and to make clear that it would employ the most powerful weapons at its disposal to defend its claim over Taiwan.

    "War logic" dictates that a weaker power needs to use maximum efforts to defeat a stronger rival, he said, speaking in fluent English. "We have no capability to fight a conventional war against the United States," General Zhu said. "We can't win this kind of war."

    Whether or not the comments signal a shift in Chinese policy, they come at a sensitive time in relations between China and the United States.

    The Pentagon is preparing the release of a long-delayed report on the Chinese military that some experts say will warn that China could emerge as a strategic rival to the United States. National security concerns have also been a major issue in the $18.5 billion bid by Cnooc Ltd., a major Chinese oil and gas company, to purchase the Unocal Corporation, the American energy concern.

    China has had atomic bombs since 1964 and currently has a small arsenal of land- and sea-based nuclear-tipped missiles that can reach the United States, according to most Western intelligence estimates. Some Pentagon officials have argued that China has been expanding the size and sophistication of its nuclear bombs and delivery systems, while others argue that Beijing has done little more than maintain a minimal but credible deterrent against a nuclear attack.

    Beijing has said repeatedly that it would use military force to prevent Taiwan from becoming a formally independent country. President Bush has made clear that the United States would defend Taiwan.

    Many military analysts have assumed that any battle over Taiwan would be localized, with both China and the United States taking care to ensure that it would not expand into a general war between the two powers.

    But the comments by General Zhu suggest that at least some elements of the military are prepared to widen the conflict, perhaps to persuade the United States that it could no more successfully fight a limited war against China than it could against the former Soviet Union.

    "If the Americans are determined to interfere, then we will be determined to respond," he said. "We Chinese will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all the cities east of Xian. Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese."

    General Zhu's threat is not the first of its kind from a senior Chinese military official. In 1995, Xiong Guangkai, who is now the deputy chief of the general staff of the People's Liberation Army, told Chas W. Freeman, a former Pentagon official, that China would consider using nuclear weapons in a Taiwan conflict. Mr. Freeman quoted Mr. Xiong as saying that Americans should worry more about Los Angeles than Taipei.

    Foreign Ministry officials did not immediately respond to requests for comment about General Zhu's remarks.

    General Zhu said he had recently expressed his views to former American officials, including Mr. Freeman and Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the former commander in chief of the United States Pacific Command.
  2. #2  
    Forget the Chinese. This whole idea is even scarier

    Terrorists, bombs smuggled across Mexico border by MS-13 gangsters

    "...thousands of al-Qaida sleeper agents have now been forward deployed into the U.S. to carry out their individual roles in the coming "American Hiroshima" plan.

    Bin Laden's goal, according to the book, is to kill at least 4 million Americans, 2 million of whom must be children. Only then, bin Laden has said, would the crimes committed by America on the Arab and Muslim world be avenged."

    Story
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  3. vw2002's Avatar
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    #3  
    what the h$ll is it going to take for our freakin country to CLOSE THE FREAKIN BORDERS!

    we need special, day-to-day investigations into ALL islamic citizens inhabiting the US if this is the threat we are facing right now.

    I don't care if it pisses some people off, I'm not willing to risk 2 million deaths at the hands of an al qaeda cell because we're not being "sensitive" to everybody's privacy. Tough sh!t.

    when we're faced with a nuke, that doesn't leave us any choice. Sorry, but its time for 100% accountability of everyone here, and closed borders. Period..
    I gotta have more cowbell
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    what the h$ll is it going to take for our freakin country to CLOSE THE FREAKIN BORDERS!

    we need special, day-to-day investigations into ALL islamic citizens inhabiting the US if this is the threat we are facing right now.

    I don't care if it pisses some people off, I'm not willing to risk 2 million deaths at the hands of an al qaeda cell because we're not being "sensitive" to everybody's privacy. Tough sh!t.

    when we're faced with a nuke, that doesn't leave us any choice. Sorry, but its time for 100% accountability of everyone here, and closed borders. Period..

    islamic citizens are not the only ones committing acts of terror. Acts of terror are used by many religious, political, and environmental groups to get thier messages accross. Many of them live and were born in the US.

    According to your ideology we need to monitor all US citizens, and closed us borders to everyone.
    Build Systems, Not Products
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  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Forget the Chinese. This whole idea is even scarier

    Terrorists, bombs smuggled across Mexico border by MS-13 gangsters

    "...thousands of al-Qaida sleeper agents have now been forward deployed into the U.S. to carry out their individual roles in the coming "American Hiroshima" plan.

    Bin Laden's goal, according to the book, is to kill at least 4 million Americans, 2 million of whom must be children. Only then, bin Laden has said, would the crimes committed by America on the Arab and Muslim world be avenged."

    Story

    Weapons of Mass Distraction. That's what these alleged statements are. Keep American's scrared as hell, while they bend all the Constitutional rights to get accross their own political, and financial agendas.

    Take Britian as a example. Their not running around like chickens with their heads cut off at every allegde terror plot.

    America is well protected from possible terror threat. And we don't need to destory all of our right's to ensure that.
    Build Systems, Not Products
    <center>All Comments Copyright Clarence C Middleton 2005-2006, All Rights Reserved<br /> <a href="mailto:ClarenceCM3@gmail.com">ClarenceCM3@gmail.com</a><br /><ahref ="http://www.middleton.ath.cx"><a href="http://www.middleton.ath.cx">http://www.middleton.ath.cx</a><br /><a href="http://www.middleton.ath.cx"><img style="width: 124px; height: 54px;"src="http://www.middleton.ath.cx/photos/middletonlogo.gif" /></a></ahref><center />
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Chinese General Threatens Use of A-Bombs if U.S. Intrudes

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/in...a/15china.html
    But like the article said:
    General Zhu, considered a hawk, stressed that his comments reflected his personal views and not official policy.
    China does worry me but they (at least right now) dont seem as fanatical as the extremists in the middle east who, if they had a nuclear weapon in the US, wouldnt think twice about detonating it.
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  7. #7  
    China has a tremendous amount to lose if they start a nuclear war with the U.S.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by ClarenceCM3
    Weapons of Mass Distraction. That's what these alleged statements are. Keep American's scrared as hell, while they bend all the Constitutional rights to get accross their own political, and financial agendas.

    Take Britian as a example. Their not running around like chickens with their heads cut off at every allegde terror plot.

    America is well protected from possible terror threat. And we don't need to destory all of our right's to ensure that.
    I can agree but the open border problem still needs to be addressed. We cant keep closing our eyes to it.
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  9. vw2002's Avatar
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    #9  
    According to your ideology we need to monitor all US citizens, and closed us borders to everyone"


    we need everyone accountable, yes, but PARTICULARLY those whose "hidden cells" are possibly embedded within our country with intentions of killing 2 MILLION people - preferably CHILDREN!!!
    those hidden cells from which we are hearing we may be terrorized by are consisting of islamic radicals - therefore - THOSE are the people, we need to focus extra attention upon. It is simply a logical approach to defending this nation!
    and this is in NO way reacting like chickens running with heads cut off, it is a NECESSARY means to protecting our nation and those innocent who live in it.

    we have to police these suspects out of society - and not wait until the disaster happens to prosecute those responsible.

    the means that we have to carry this out are finite, so we have to focus them upon the most logical possibilities.

    but just as importantly, the borders MUST be closed. There is simply no arguing this. You can't fight a war on terrorism and simultaneously leave all the doors and windows wide the hell open for everything and anything to crawl into. No can do. Come on, george, wake up and get the job done right here.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  10. #10  
    Without access to Walmart China wouldn't need to be nuked, they would starve.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    China has a tremendous amount to lose if they start a nuclear war with the U.S.

    America Has alot to lose if they enter a nuclear war with China. Any country has alot to lose if it start a nuclear war with any other country "nuclear or non-nuclear". Remember both of the World War. Countries can gain Allies. Millitary No Country can claim to be the Top Dog in any Nuclear battle, because even a weaker country "that is dependant on by a larger one" can align with Stronger Allies, or even just a larger number of smaller allies. No one want China Aligned with Russia, and every country that hated the US Allied.

    If smaller countries that hate the US see a Major Country like Chine Ready to goto War, they could Allie with china, and Share nuclear info.

    Imagine

    China
    Pakastan
    North Korea
    Various West African Countries
    Various Middle Eastern Countries
    All Allied against American, and All Sharing nuclearn and biological weapons info.

    No World war is Capable of being won, and this American Can beat everyone attitude is unrealistic
    Build Systems, Not Products
    <center>All Comments Copyright Clarence C Middleton 2005-2006, All Rights Reserved<br /> <a href="mailto:ClarenceCM3@gmail.com">ClarenceCM3@gmail.com</a><br /><ahref ="http://www.middleton.ath.cx"><a href="http://www.middleton.ath.cx">http://www.middleton.ath.cx</a><br /><a href="http://www.middleton.ath.cx"><img style="width: 124px; height: 54px;"src="http://www.middleton.ath.cx/photos/middletonlogo.gif" /></a></ahref><center />
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Forget the Chinese. This whole idea is even scarier

    Terrorists, bombs smuggled across Mexico border by MS-13 gangsters

    "...thousands of al-Qaida sleeper agents have now been forward deployed into the U.S. to carry out their individual roles in the coming "American Hiroshima" plan.

    Bin Laden's goal, according to the book, is to kill at least 4 million Americans, 2 million of whom must be children. Only then, bin Laden has said, would the crimes committed by America on the Arab and Muslim world be avenged."

    Story
    Spreading this kind of information around is exactly what terrorism is really all about. You are unknowingly doing work for the terrorists here. By attempting to raise awareness of a threat you are actually inflicting terror into the minds of others. Public awareness of terror threats/rumors do more damage to the human psyche than anything else. These threats/rumors should be investigated by authorities without a doubt, but since they are not confirmed to be true I believe there should be no panic over it.

    Understand that these "terrorists" want to bring us down to their level. They live inside a prison in their own mind and they know exactly what to do/say to drag us to their hell. They have conditioned us via inflicted trauma to respond hastily to anything involving terrorism. Now anytime someone mentions anything new and plausible, we scramble around like erratic ants of anxiety... I say F^&K that!! That is another form of control and a loss of the ultimate freedom, the freedom to have peace within and around you.

    All in all, I look at it this way, that dark day will come for each of us at some point. And the way you go, is the way you go. Realistically, I may walk outside today and die a horrible death... so may others. This would be a terrible thing but we each can't escape our fateful day. Why should we worry so much about this that we do not truly live our lives? I'm sorry, but living with that worry cloud over our heads is not really living... it zombifies us and pushes us a step back on the ladder of civilization.

    We should remain confident that we are doing our best, given the information and resources we have at hand, to protect ourselves. And that's all we can ever do. If crap happens, it happens... and we adapt at that point. C'est la vie.
    .
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by vw2002
    what the h$ll is it going to take for our freakin country to CLOSE THE FREAKIN BORDERS!

    we need special, day-to-day investigations into ALL islamic citizens inhabiting the US if this is the threat we are facing right now.

    I don't care if it pisses some people off, I'm not willing to risk 2 million deaths at the hands of an al qaeda cell because we're not being "sensitive" to everybody's privacy. Tough sh!t.

    when we're faced with a nuke, that doesn't leave us any choice. Sorry, but its time for 100% accountability of everyone here, and closed borders. Period..
    I'm curious. What's your position on tax cuts vs. tax increases? I ask because, as I hope you realize, to do the things you suggest would require a massive government program, including the hiring of 10s of thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) of federal agents to patrol the borders and seacoasts, and monitor muslims in the U.S. And concomittent investments in technology (weapons, sensors, computer systems, detention facilities, courts and judges, etc.). This would cost hundreds of billions of dollars to fully implement.

    The ironic thing, to me, is that the people clamoring most for increased actions of this sort tend to be the same conservatives who rail against government spending and want more and more tax cuts.

    TANSTAAFL (There ain't no such thing as a free lunch). Someday maybe everyone will figure out that you have to pay for what you get, sooner or later.

    And just think, if we succeed, we'll have turned ourselves into what we profess be against: a police state where freedom is little more than a myth, where people are afraid to voice opinions contrary to current dogma for fear of being suspected a terrorist, or worse (just protesting against the war gets you an FBI file today). Sounds a lot like Iraq before the war, or Saudi Arabia today.

    For now, we'll just ignore the constitutional issues, since that would make the argument in favor of monitoring every Muslim even more difficult to make.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by skillllllz
    Spreading this kind of information around is exactly what terrorism is really all about. ... We should remain confident that we are doing our best, given the information and resources we have at hand, to protect ourselves. And that's all we can ever do. If crap happens, it happens... and we adapt at that point. C'est la vie.
    You have a pretty lame view. Perhaps you should listen to the news every once in a while. C'est la vie.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    You have a pretty lame view. Perhaps you should listen to the news every once in a while. C'est la vie.
    You're arrogance, ignorance, and (more specifically) intolerance towards differences belittles you. Good luck in life.
    .
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by skillllllz
    You're arrogance, ignorance, and (more specifically) intolerance towards differences belittles you. Good luck in life.
    Sounds just like you are speaking of yourself. Good luck to you.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  17. #17  
    I think everyone can agree that we have a pretty wide open border. Will it cost money to secure? Sure, but just because its difficult doesn't mean we shouldn't look for solutions.

    The world is constantly changing...Globalization is here. We need to accept the good and the bad that comes with it.

    I feel sorry for all the threat analysts in Wa D.C. ...they have a huge job! ;-)
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  18.    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by skillllllz
    You are unknowingly doing work for the terrorists here. By attempting to raise awareness of a threat you are actually inflicting terror into the minds of others. Public awareness of terror threats/rumors do more damage to the human psyche than anything else.
    So what would help the terrorist more.....having a population of millions aware of their rumored plans....having the population ignorant of their plans with more freedom to move around the country and buy what they need.

    There are several reports of several small back country airport workers and airplane flight instructors who reported several suspect people due to the news reports that they might try to use a small plane to spread bio / chem agents. Several of them proved to be valid and some were reported to vital clues and commended with their actions to stop them from gaining access and reporting them.

    It is about keeping it in perspective. Awareness is a positive thing. Compulsive addiction to every thought of every passing commentator, every newspaper, every tabloid, rumor you heard some dog's owner you met while jogging, etc...is not. Also ignoring all reports is just as bad.


    These threats/rumors should be investigated by authorities without a doubt, but since they are not confirmed to be true I believe there should be no panic over it.
    There is nothing wrong with investigating unconfirmed reports of an event as big as this. If it comes back debunked...GREAT for us! If not, then I believe millions of people would be very grateful we followed up on unconfirmed reports of nukes smuggled into the US.

    Sometimes it is up the to people to pressure the gov on an issue or concern to get action or at least to continue to follow up on a situation. There is nothing wrong or being in a Panic state of mind for that process to happen in any given situation whether it is health care or nukes smuggled into multiple cities throughout the US.

    Understand that these "terrorists" want to bring us down to their level.
    Their level is targeting and killing innocent civilians, and have even made claims that they enjoy it when there are women and children involved because it furthers the trauma aspect and view it as a step of progress for their cause.

    I don't think we are going to be drug down to their level.

    They have conditioned us via inflicted trauma to respond hastily to anything involving terrorism. Now anytime someone mentions anything new and plausible, we scramble around like erratic ants of anxiety... I say F^&K that!!
    What part of a WAR don't you understand? If during WWII there were even just rumors of multiple nukes smuggled into the US, would that have been of concern (not counting the nuke race at the time)? Would it have been worth verifying that the gov was on top if it, not ignoring it, and actively confirming or confronting the people and the cause of the situation?

    You don't have to compulsively fixated on terror threats to appreciate that they are real and there are things that can be done on local, regional, and national levels in proactive and post event responses....if we are aware of the possibilities of the threats we are currently facing. I view that as being responsible not being erratic ants of anxiety with a screw that and let me watch my TV attitude.

    During a time of war I appreciate knowing what dangers I personally may be facing, here in my very own home town....not for fear of facing them, but giving us a chance to do something. That maybe for some, just writing to all levels of gov to pressure them to at least confirm if it is a legit threat or not. To preparing 72 hour kits for emergency situations. To educating their families of what to do in case of an emergency of this magnitude (ie. where to meet if separate, best place to stay, supplies, etc...). A lot of these steps are very simple and can be done in a single afternoon. No worries, but having the opportunities to do whatever I personally feel I can or should do.

    All in all, I look at it this way, that dark day will come for each of us at some point. And the way you go, is the way you go. Realistically, I may walk outside today and die a horrible death... so may others. This would be a terrible thing but we each can't escape our fateful day. Why should we worry so much about this that we do not truly live our lives? I'm sorry, but living with that worry cloud over our heads is not really living... it zombifies us and pushes us a step back on the ladder of civilization.
    I look at it this way.....You don't need to stress over it, or even worry about it. But, I will do anything to protect my family and prevent that day from coming for as long as possible. Everyone has a number, but if I can skip back a couple years in line, then I will do it and not just accept that my place in line is it and there is nothing I can do about it.....to me that is a lot more depressing.

    We should remain confident that we are doing our best, given the information and resources we have at hand, to protect ourselves. And that's all we can ever do.
    I agree that we are doing out best in several areas.....but we are failing in others. So we are currently not doing all we can do.

    Again bringing awareness of possible, or in case of border security, probable security weakness is a positive move as it does add pressure by the people to the gov to improve or make the necessary changes to address it. Believe me, there are lots of pressures from special interest groups that get a lot of say in what is done and without the check and balance of information given to the people, this would be a lot more unbalanced than it is now.

    If crap happens, it happens... and we adapt at that point. C'est la vie.
    Let's remember that when the next terror strike does happen on our soil again. If there were 3 perfectly timed nukes strikes in the business district of New York (your home town?), downtown LA, and and in the heart of Seattle.......Would you say the samething (crap happens we can now adapt. C'est la vie) or would you be asking why didn't the gov do anything to stop it?
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/20/2005 at 03:05 PM.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Sounds just like you are speaking of yourself. Good luck to you.
    Being that we see things from two different angles I'm sure you feel the exact same way about my view as I do yours. However, I didn't call your view lame. I accept and understand your view. I expect that courtesy in return.
    .
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by skillllllz
    Being that we see things from two different angles I'm sure you feel the exact same way about my view as I do yours. However, I didn't call your view lame. I accept and understand your view. I expect that courtesy in return.
    Suggesting that I am "unknowingly doing work for the terrorists here" and by "attempting to raise awareness of a threat you are actually inflicting terror into the minds of others" are some pretty lame statements and certainly dont sound like someone that accepts and understands my point of view. True courtesy would have started with a better choice of words on your part, but since it didnt, I can only believe that you really dont understand my point of view, and I dont think that you even understood the story that I referred to. If you just want to sit back and let something terrible happen to our country and then just kinda figure out what we should do next, you know, adapt, well I think that is also pretty lame. Sorry
    Well behaved women rarely make history
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