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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by dutchtrumpet
    Way to keep the discussion on an intellectual level.
    I agree, but he is saying what Gfunk is implying, I'm sure you can read the irony in his post...

    Lets all be adults here, liberalism != communism, nor is conservatism fascism..
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  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    I agree, but he is saying what Gfunk is implying, I'm sure you can read the irony in his post...

    Lets all be adults here, liberalism != communism, nor is conservatism fascism..

    You mean. . . . let's not be extreme or absolute in our posting?
  3. NRG
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    #43  
    My thoughts on fixing the current problem is a rather simple one. Strong intelligence, not military force. We are not fighting a country but a idealogy. The best way to counter-act these forces of idealogy is not invading a country that had nothing to do with terrorism. By invading a country which had nothing to do with terrorism you see the outcome in London, because we have given them (terrorists and fence sitting muslims) more of a reason to hate and act upon their dislike for American Forgein Policy. It is not our freedom that these folks hate it is our forgein policy. Before you go and start saying this is not true, ask yourself why France, Sweden, Canada, etc. have not been attacked. I feel the best way to defeat this idealogy is to not give them fuel for their fire of hatered. The CIA is key in the process of defeating the ones we are dealing with right now. As much as some people would like to believe a strong military will defeat terrorisms idealogy it just isn't the case. Cause if this was the route we are going to take we are going to have bomb 19 seperate homes throughout the middle east whenever they get the idea to get active in bringing retribution upon the US for it's FP. We are looking at case where we need inside info to get inside the network. This way we can be aware of coming attacks, the network structure, and even get some info on sleeper cells within' the US that are our worst threats as of right now.

    Also just to clear up any ideas that I am against fighting terrorism I have NO grievances about the Afgan war, I think we did absolutely the right thing. I live worried about a dirty bomb being made from the LOOTED NUCLEAR FACILITIES in Iraq and being used on CENTCOM. The looting is a DIRECT result of the US invading Iraq! Tell me how a military is going to stop the smuggling of nuclear material? Do I feel safer now that we invaded Iraq? NO, I don't, I am more scared because of the invasion of Iraq. We have given the terrorist a breeding ground (from a report by the CIA).


    OFF Rant: If we were all Radical Islamists, would we be considered radical?
    Last edited by NRG; 07/11/2005 at 01:01 PM.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Holden
    You mean. . . . let's not be extreme or absolute in our posting?
    Bingo!
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  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    I agree, but he is saying what Gfunk is implying, I'm sure you can read the irony in his post...

    Lets all be adults here, liberalism != communism, nor is conservatism fascism..

    Actually it is...in the EXTREME form!

    The difference is clulup automatically accused me of being a Nazi sympathizer because he assumed I was conservative.... apparently all forms of conservatism according to him are extreme I guess. Perhaps anything to the 'right' of him is extreme, I don't know...My point was that extreme left is associated with communism/socialism. Why that is controversial is mysterious to me...
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  6. #46  


    This shows the ideoogical spectrum quite nicely actually...although I'm not sure about the "currently in office" part... It is shifted a bit too much to the left...

    http://members.tripod.com/~GOPcapitalist/polsp.html
    Last edited by Gaurav; 07/11/2005 at 01:58 PM.
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  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Before you go and start saying this is not true, ask yourself why France, Sweden, Canada, etc. have not been attacked.
    Let' see, how about corruption and fear of their own Muslim population, and "head in the sand" foreign policy?
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Actually it is...in the EXTREME form!

    The difference is clulup automatically accused me of being a Nazi sympathizer because he assumed I was conservative.... apparently all forms of conservatism according to him are extreme I guess. Perhaps anything to the 'right' of him is extreme, I don't know...My point was that extreme left is associated with communism/socialism. Why that is controversial is mysterious to me...
    its not what you said, more how you said it I think..
    It sounded very much like you were implying that liberals were just communist in the closet so to say..
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  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Let' see, how about corruption and fear of their own Muslim population, and "head in the sand" foreign policy?
    funny you use corruption... like the US has none of that :/

    As for the other two, I wouldnt put it your way, but being neutral seems to work though...
    If you interfere in other countries bussiness you riks that other interfere in yours... sad but true..
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  10. #50  
    It is not our freedom that these folks hate it is our forgein policy...
    No, they hate us anyway... and by they I mean the radical Islamist. Refer to previous post on general reason why. They hate the US/west before the Iraq war, before 9/11 and even before the whole Israeli/Palestinian issue...

    I live worried about a dirty bomb being made from the LOOTED NUCLEAR FACILITIES in Iraq and being used on CENTCOM. The looting is a DIRECT result of the US invading Iraq! Tell me how a military is going to stop the smuggling of nuclear material? Do I feel safer now that we invaded Iraq? NO, I don't, I am more scared because of the invasion of Iraq. We have given the terrorist a breeding ground (from a report by the CIA).
    Huh? Isn't that sort of circular reasoning? If you don't believe there were any WMD's in Iraq (and obviously there were not any) and therefore you cannot support the justification used by the admin for going to war, then how could you belive there were nuclear materials looted from Iraq by terrorists? Unless orf course you DO believe there were WMD's in Iraq all along?

    Anway, I do agree the threat of a dirty bomb is real. But the nuclear materials are more likely to come from someplace like Russia, North Korea, Pakistan or Iran...
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  11. NRG
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    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Let' see, how about corruption and fear of their own Muslim population, and "head in the sand" foreign policy?
    You are saying that because of their "head in the sand" FP, they were not attacked? I thought they hated us because of our freedom, or so bush would have us believe?
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    No, they hate us anyway... and by they I mean the radical Islamist. Refer to previous post on general reason why. They hate the US/west before the Iraq war, before 9/11 and even before the whole Israeli/Palestinian issue...
    Interesting, why do you think they hate us then?
    They don't agree with us on religion that's for sure, but are you saying that if the US wasnt involved in the Israeli/Palestinian issue and hadn't fought the gulf wars 9-11 would have still happened?
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  13. NRG
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    #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    No, they hate us anyway... and by they I mean the radical Islamist. Refer to previous post on general reason why. They hate the US/west before the Iraq war, before 9/11 and even before the whole Israeli/Palestinian issue...
    Agreed, they hate us for our forgein policy.



    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Huh? Isn't that sort of circular reasoning? If you don't believe there were any WMD's in Iraq (and obviously there were not any) and therefore you cannot support the justification used by the admin for going to war, then how could you belive there were nuclear materials looted from Iraq by terrorists? Unless orf course you DO believe there were WMD's in Iraq all along?
    The material that was looted was from a nuclear storage facility. Here is an article on it: Looting
    You can google it some more with the search terms "tuwaitha iraq looted". Enjoy, it is rather scary if you ask me.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic


    This shows the ideoogical spectrum quite nicely actually...although I'm not sure about the "currently in office" part...

    http://members.tripod.com/~GOPcapitalist/polsp.html
    Heheh, Christian Empire Radicals. Also funny how they specifically mention "New England Republicans" and despite the fact that the current president was both born in New England (yay Ct!) and is a republican, they aren't "currently in office."

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/gwbbio.html
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    its not what you said, more how you said it I think..
    It sounded very much like you were implying that liberals were just communist in the closet so to say..

    HUH?

    Both the extreme left and radical Islam share a common goal: the dismantling of the current system of western civilization.
    It seems to me not what I said, but what you perceived, or rather wanted to perceive.

    None-the-less it is a very pertinant point. One of the biggest reasons why GWB won re-election despite all the horrendous blunders in Iraq and his pathetic public speaking skills is that regardless of how bad GWB was, voters still trusted him more than the left. And this was b/c the extreme left (not the moderates) is viewed as somehow sympathetic to radical islamists or not willing enough to stand up to it and fight. This is b/c the extreme left often sees Western civilization itself as more of the cause for terrorism than the ideology of Radical Islamism. Of course there is merit to the arguement for more thoughful policy, but that does not mean you will change the ideology of the Islamist... The extreme rightwing religious nuts in contrast see the war on terror in similar terms to the radical Islamist...as civilizational war when actually it really is an Intra-Islamic war.... You see there is a spectrum in the Islamic world as well...
    Last edited by Gaurav; 07/11/2005 at 01:57 PM.
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  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Interesting, why do you think they hate us then?
    They don't agree with us on religion that's for sure, but are you saying that if the US wasnt involved in the Israeli/Palestinian issue and hadn't fought the gulf wars 9-11 would have still happened?

    Osama Bin Laden didn't order the attack on 9/11 for the Palestinian cause. In fact, you go back and read much of his writings/proclamations, he hardly mentions it. What he talks about more was freeing muslim lands (i.e, Saudi Arabia) from infidels (US) and restoring medevil Caliphatic style rule. He uses the Palestinian cause, like most of the despotic Arab regimes in the region, to further his own cause and ideology and to recruit more followers. Of course American foreign policies in the region have sprinkled and fertilized the minds of young arabs against the west, but the ideology of Wahabi Radical Islamist is independent of that and has existed for a much longer time going back almost a century. One only has to look to the movement of the Muslim Brotherhood, considered the predecessor of most radical Islamic groups, as evidence to that...
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  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    You are saying that because of their "head in the sand" FP, they were not attacked? I thought they hated us because of our freedom, or so bush would have us believe?
    But given a choice, do you attack those actively fighting you or those who stand in the side looking away and whistling?
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Agreed, they hate us for our forgein policy.
    So according to your theory, if we left them alone, they wouldn't attack us right? That is very naive...

    The material that was looted was from a nuclear storage facility. Here is an article on it: Looting
    You can google it some more with the search terms "tuwaitha iraq looted". Enjoy, it is rather scary if you ask me.

    As quoted from the article you linked to:

    But on Monday, a State Department spokesman played down the Washington Post report, saying that none of the material involved was suitable for making nuclear weapons.


    Still curious, are you arguing that there WERE WMD's in Iraq? No one beleives that anymore...even the right wingers!
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  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    Heheh, Christian Empire Radicals. Also funny how they specifically mention "New England Republicans" and despite the fact that the current president was both born in New England (yay Ct!) and is a republican, they aren't "currently in office."

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/gwbbio.html

    Yeah, that is pretty skewed. To get a more accurate picture, you have realign that spectrum somewhat. In the UK and most of Europe, the center would actually be more in between the Dems and Greens while in the US the center is located more between the DLC and Reps. More specifically, the center is more slightly right of center in the US than in Europe...
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  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    funny you use corruption... like the US has none of that :/

    As for the other two, I wouldnt put it your way, but being neutral seems to work though...
    If you interfere in other countries bussiness you riks that other interfere in yours... sad but true..
    I'm sure you are aware of the corruption of which I speak - Oil For Food ring any bells?

    So "if you interfere in other countries business you risk", I get the idea you're inferring "head in the sand" foreign policy is the best choice?
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