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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by dutchtrumpet
    Just curious...as a liberal what is your solution for dealing with radical muslims?
    It is not an issue that can be solved easily I'm afraid.
    A number of things must be done:
    -contain the thread (but not let it rule our lives. a fine balance indeed)
    -take away the hate that drive people to these attacks.
    -make terrorism pointless, I.E. react like the Londoners, life your life, don't let the fear run it, without fear/terror terrorism is nothing.

    How to do those points is a very long and complicated story which I dont have time for at the moment, but if we can manage those 3 we can succeed.
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  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by dutchtrumpet
    ?
    My point was that the original poster didn't even mention terrorism as a reason to condemn radical Islamicists; his sole reason for criticizing them seems to be that they reject the modern world. Religious fundamentalists of every stripe - Christian, Hindu, Muslim - reject much of the modern world and, if they had their choice, would have us all living under some Medeival, but "pure", theocratic tyranny.

    I want us to defeat terroristst and fight any tendency towards religious fundamentalism: I value my freedom.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Not so sure I've actually heard this stated by them either, however what industries do radical islamists operate that could sustain electricity, cars, etc.? I think they would want the world to go back 1400 years.
    Look at Saudi-Arabia: there, an extreme, fundamentalist version of Islam rules. The difference between the religious beliefs of Bin Laden and the rulinig Wahabites is not that big, but still there are plenty of cars, planes and electricity in Saudi-Arabia. Also plenty of ladies in black burqas, and very little music or dancing...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    What kind of nonsense is this? If 'the liberals' win we become radical muslims?
    Liberals don't support radical muslims either, they just have a different way of handling it than you.. the 'if you are not with us you are against us' brainwashing seems to have worked on you pitty...

    Statist liberalism also has some surprising things in common with militant Islam, despite their obvious differences. Both appeal to people's desire to feel like they are part of a larger group that is on the side of right. Both would also use strong governments to achieve their goals and undo some of the effects of corporate capitalism. But militant Islam would destroy Western corporations and media, which it sees as a form of cultural imperialism pushing secularism, individualism and decadence. By contrast, statist liberalism has grown along with modern capitalism in the West, attempting to reduce its excesses and protect those it perceives as victims.
    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EA07Aa01.html

    Both the extreme left and radical Islam share a common goal: the dismantling of the current system of western civilization. Leftist and anarchists want to destroy capitalist societies so they can create their own view of utopian socialist/communist paradigm. Radical Islamist want to destoy western civilations to supplant the current culture with theirs. The motives may be different, but the extremes of both camps do share a common bond none the less...

    Below is a very good series of articles on the link between Islamicism, facism and etc:

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/others/...terrorism.html
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  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Frenzytom
    Sounds like we need another Crusade.
    The Christians lost the crusades.
    Animo et Fide
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Look at Saudi-Arabia: there, an extreme, fundamentalist version of Islam rules. The difference between the religious beliefs of Bin Laden and the rulinig Wahabites is not that big, but still there are plenty of cars, planes and electricity in Saudi-Arabia. Also plenty of ladies in black burqas, and very little music or dancing...

    That is b/c the Saud regime keeps the wahhabis in check with bribes, fear, cronism, payoffs, and authoritarian hold...

    Do not even think that the radical clerics in Saudi really support the regime. The kindgom today is a very precarious place and could easily topple if given enough pressure...
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  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    [url]
    Both the extreme left and radical Islam share a common goal: the dismantling of the current system of western civilization. Leftist and anarchists want to destroy capitalist societies so they can create their own view of utopian socialist/communist paradigm. Radical Islamist want to destoy western civilations to supplant the current culture with theirs. The motives may be different, but the extremes of both camps do share a common bond none the less...
    Liberal != Communist
    Ad once again the keyword in your post is extreme.. extreme is bad on either side of the political scale..
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  8. #28  
    The original question shows that the extremists are obtaining their goals of framing their agenda as that of the muslim world.

    All of this is far more complex than the simple Us vs Them mentality you so want to view this with.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    The kindgom today is a very precarious place and could easily topple if given enough pressure...
    Both sides have that problem, look at the polarization in politics worldwide..
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  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ...aren't you confusing this with the Amish? Seriously though, I have never heard Islamists preaching against cars, planes and electricity?

    The Taleban form of radical Islam based on wahhabism is a virulent form of Islam that is anti-modern in a very literal sense. The REALLY want to move the clock back to a medievil age of sharia based Islam that outlaws many facets of modern civilation including much technology...that is except for weaponary it seems.
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  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Liberal != Communist
    Ad once again the keyword in your post is extreme.. extreme is bad on either side of the political scale..

    Yes, communism is an extreme form of liberalism...
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  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Statist liberalism also has some surprising things in common with militant Islam, despite their obvious differences. Both appeal to people's desire to feel like they are part of a larger group that is on the side of right. Both would also use strong governments to achieve their goals and undo some of the effects of corporate capitalism. But militant Islam would destroy Western corporations and media, which it sees as a form of cultural imperialism pushing secularism, individualism and decadence. By contrast, statist liberalism has grown along with modern capitalism in the West, attempting to reduce its excesses and protect those it perceives as victims.
    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EA07Aa01.html

    Both the extreme left and radical Islam share a common goal: the dismantling of the current system of western civilization. Leftist and anarchists want to destroy capitalist societies so they can create their own view of utopian socialist/communist paradigm. Radical Islamist want to destoy western civilations to supplant the current culture with theirs. The motives may be different, but the extremes of both camps do share a common bond none the less...
    This is just as stupid as lumping together conservatives and the extreme right, such as Neo-Nazis. I leave it to you how stupid you consider that.

    "Both appeal to people's desire to feel like they are part of a larger group that is on the side of right..." Sure, which group doesn't? Conservatives, maybe?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Yes, communism is an extreme form of liberalism...
    Sure, just as Nazism an extreme form of Conservatism... You are conservative, right? So you must sympathise with Nazis, or am I mistaken?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Sure, just as Nazism an extreme form of Conservatism... You are conservative, right? So you must sympathise with Nazis, or am I mistaken?
    Way to keep the discussion on an intellectual level.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    This is just as stupid as lumping together conservatives and the extreme right, such as Neo-Nazis. I leave it to you how stupid you consider that.

    "Both appeal to people's desire to feel like they are part of a larger group that is on the side of right..." Sure, which group doesn't? Conservatives, maybe?

    Why is this stupid? What do you think facism is? Everything fails within a spectrum. I did not say the extreme right was any better. Authoritarian/military/facist regimes form the opposite wing of this spectrum that is associated with the extreme right wing...
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  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Sure, just as Nazism an extreme form of Conservatism... You are conservative, right? So you must sympathise with Nazis, or am I mistaken?

    Oh boy...

    Looks I hit a nerve.

    By definition, Nazism is an extreme form of facism that is born out the extreme right wing ideologies.

    Are you trying to argue that communism/marxism in it's pure form is not extremist?!
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  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    Both sides have that problem, look at the polarization in politics worldwide..

    I don't think the polariztion in the US is the same as in Saudi Arabia...
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  18. #38  
    I think we are all agreed on the word extreme. . . . . .
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown
    The Christians lost the crusades.
    My point exactly...we don't learn from history...you know the rest.
  20. #40  
    Look, Radical Islamists generally have three broad themes in their ideologies that prevade most of their thinking. Thomas Friedman of the NYT's recently wrote a very good article on this, so I'll try to summarize the best I can.

    The major conflicts within Islam and radical islamist compromise three broad themes:

    Radical islamist are anti-western:

    They view the western civilization as the antithesis to theirs. They view with derision any society not of theirs and feel humiliated by the relavant standing of Islamic civilization in contrast with theirs which they view as peaking several hundred years ago. Alot of this anti-westernism is now focused as anti-Americanism b/cof the Iraq war etc, but they hate all western civilation

    Radical Islamist are anti-modern:

    Thomas Friedman described this as struggle between the "realists and fanatics". The antimodern fanatics view modern muslim countries and regimes as decadent. Then way to turn the clock back to an age of "purer Islamic" values.

    Radical Islamist are anti -Shia

    Most radical Islamist are influenced by Wahabbism which is virulently anti-Shia. They view Shias like infidels just like the rest of us. Pakistan's secretarian strife is a prime example of this...

    http://www.nytimes.com/top/opinion/e....html?offset=0
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