View Poll Results: Is Computed [Pure] Communism Possible???

Voters
19. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, I think it's got a shot.

    3 15.79%
  • Yes, capitalism will still be here for at least the next 50 years.

    0 0%
  • No, capitalism's the only way people will work.

    9 47.37%
  • No, capitalism provides innovation.

    7 36.84%
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Results 41 to 60 of 149
  1.    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by ronbo2000
    No, individuals, particularly young ones should learn to think and evaluate information for themselves.

    Nowadays, majority of the people take information from newspaper, teachers, business and political leaders as accurate and true without further revaluation. Again, these are sources of information, you need to revalidate.
    Now you listen here...just 'cause you like to move good threads out of the area that receives the most attention doesn't mean you can come in this one and say I don't think for myself. How many 19 year olds think communism could be possible in the future. I talk about it occasionally with friends, but they don't want to talk about it 'cause they can't friggin' explain why we need inflation, why we need advertisements for medication when we're supposed to receive prescriptions from a doctor, why business owners can own more money than those who help them make it by a magnitude of 10 to 1,000,000, why we have lobbyists who influence politicians, why some families get better educations than others, why some people can wine and dine on yachts for days without remorse for people that are starving. Well, I take that back....they can! They say what I say...because there's no other way to distribute power equally -- FOR NOW!

    I've taken a lotta information from many sides...if you haven't been able to tell, I read a fair amount. And I have done my best to make up my own mind and will continue to do to my best...as I hope you have and will do yourself.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    Dude...again, people on these forums tend to take stuff that's really irrelevant to the whole picture and cite it over and over again.
    I was refering to Ward Churchill, not your professor, since you asked about him. PAY ATTENTION!!!
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    They should if you're a liberal arts student. However, I'm in the engineering program. Technically it's Comp Sci, but still considered engineering. I don't have to take English my first year and no foreign languages are required. I think I'm only supposed to take like 6 humanities classes before I graduate.
    Actually, they should PERIOD. It is key for ANYONE to understand the basic fundamentals of how our government works. 'Tis much more important than, say, an English major being required to take Trig.

    Actually, the issues of income tax, Social Security, and further I learned in high school, then again in college.

    If you're saying engineers don't need to understand the basis of politics, then that concerns me even more. In that case, I'm assuming the professor you're referring to is solely focusing on technology itself, wasn't required to earn credits on the basics we all need to know, and thus couldn't backup his/her comments with enough resources to make it a viable opinion in a publication.

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    My bad...I try to make my posts as coherent as possible, but I was in a rush and had to go after that post right before yours. What I meant to say was..."Communism doesn't equate to identical goods." I completely identify the lack of diversity as one of the reasons (along with the abuse of power) that communism failed. So you make sure that there's diversity (and power is distributed equally)...and it's one (two) steps closer to a pure communism that works.
    And how exactly do you do that? How about everyone gets paid the same, but the power they have is based on strength - which would put the weaker folk at the bottom of the totem pole for everything EXCEPT economic wealth.

    The fact that we can all earn more or less money, and ideally, our pay is based on experience, desire to learn, flexibility, knowledge and our "drive" to do a good job, then I'd have a problem with someone who spends all day filing her nails making the same pay as I. Rate of pay is motivation to do a good job. The entire US is not an Indian Reservation in the middle of nowhere, nor is it a makeup of the Amish. Never has been, never will be.


    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    Still arguing that it wasn't possible. Neither I, nor you, has seen the future...so the phrase "anything is possible" still holds true to me. As to people copying from someone else's work...that still happens in a capitalistic society. Look at how Windows Mobile devices are becoming more Treo like.
    No, I can't see the future, but experience here shows that the general population plain out wouldn't accept it. There are already groups pushing for more uniformity and the bulk of Americans have already stood up saying that they like diversity on all counts.

    It's a shame we sit and cuss the rich - while there's grounds to gripe when it comes to tax cuts and breaks, sneaky bits via politics, the simple fact is, they made their money. People can cuss Bill Gates all they want, doesn't change the fact that he started a movement and delivered affordable computing to millions of homes. Why shouldn't he be rich? Sure, there's problems with his dealings, and some have been hashed out in Federal Court - but the simple fact is, we Americans pulled out our wallets and turned over paychecks to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    But anyway...as to the communist side...I'm going to throw out Open Source software again. Multiple solutions to one problem: MySQL, PostgreSQL, Firebird, etc. All made with no funding...out of the goodness of some programmers' hearts. Also...again, I'd relate Google to the way that the Government should work. There's people working as individuals that work in groups separate from other groups - some compete, other groups aren't related at all. But as a whole, it's the best business model we've seen in this country since...err -- I dunno, Google's been pretty dominant over my currently short lifespan.
    Sorry, you can toss out OpenSource 10 more times, doesn't change the fact that the people who did it weren't forced to. I admire OpenSource, and when I see those little donate buttons for works I use, I click them. But, most of the folks working onthose aren't reaping any benefits. Some have day jobs, others have their own cashflow, some make their money customize things for people. There is very little OpenSource out there that's been created with absolutely no return (planned or otherwise).

    And as for Google, you do realize that they make money, right? VERY GOOD money. They're smart business sense has actually crushed many others right out of business. Should they reap the benefits by taking home larger paychecks? Right on they should.

    To say they shouldn't is like saying that the person(s) who finally cure cancer should have to work a full time job till the day they die - when in actuality, they should have a slew of money hurled at them so they can party on the beach till the good Lord takes 'em home.

    Pamela






    Tulane University. The president wouldn't help you out much, as Scott Cowan cares more about our football program than the academic side. The dean of engineering is going to tell you that government doesn't have a dern thing (for the most part) to do with programming.



    It's not that government text bores me...it's just that I've been reading up on other philisophical differences between conservatives and liberals...and innovative advancements in Open Source Software that are much more appealing to me than taxes. Will check out the Frank Zappa thing when I get a chance.



    This is true, but we love the convenience factor of having ONLY ONE device to carry around to do most of our difficultly mundane tasks. What if we didn't even need to remember to carry around that ONE device?? I'm not saying that the borg thing is totally true. I am saying that the smartphone thing is perfectly within reason, though.



    Not really. This was only one day outta the year that he mentioned anything not directly related to the C programming language. If you're saying that you haven't become who you are because of the teachers who taught you, the bosses who employed you, the family members who share your traits, the friends who share your experiences...I'm gonna have to ask how you turned out the way you did.

    And I have no idea what that last sentence means...please elaborate.



    No, no -- I'm saying simply that the government's purpose is safety and control (not ALL control, but a little control...yea). But you've got to understand...in a capitalist society...he who has the gold does most certainly make the rules. He with more capital wins the game. Bill gates is the most powerful person in our country...not Bush or Greenspan or any governmental official. As long as Bill Gates controls the security, release structure, etc. of 95% of the computers inthe world....and has money to spend it on whatever he pleases (be it his own military, or weapons, or the stock of other companies, or whatever), he is the most powerful person in this society where money equals power.

    I do agree with the comment that innovative people who dream and take the stand are more of an asset to humankind than the wealthy -- COMPLETELY!! I do however, continue to believe that if the playing field in terms of economic status were truly level, those innovative people would outshine their peers and influence others more easily than those that have more money. You may say that level economic status would stifle innovation, but I disagree. I guess the reason why is that you see people needing to innovate before seeing the benefits of everyone living a "fair" life in terms of health, food, clothing, etc....whereas, I see the benefits gradually showing up more and more as we truly do become an intelligent society. Whether it be Open Source -vs- Closed Source Software, Blogs -vs- Newspapers, Online Trading/Selling -vs- Traditional Stores w/ a Cashier.

    I'm actually understanding my teacher's comment about just moving forward now. I think that capitalism, Microsoft, One-sided journalism (specifically Fox), and stores/owners that make uber profits all had to be necessary before the opposites bounce back to restore balance to the force. Man this is deep sheet to me. I understand it hasn't happened yet...so obviously I can't be right to you until what I view as the good side overtakes what you see as the good side. But yea...



    I've read a little bit. I have not checked out the entrance on wikipedia, however. Will do it and post my definition of communism along with previous entrances into my computerific brain later tonight or tomorrow perhaps. This is too much economy for one day.[/QUOTE]
    Using my treo 650 for business:
    DesignExtend.com
  4.    #44  
    Sorry, I missed this earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by mediasi
    Additionally, we learn from ourselves - by our own experiences. For example, how many High School students do you think you could convince that they'll miss those days for the rest of their lives. All the while they just want to get out. We don't realize how important those days were until they are gone.
    Completely in line with my argument about learning from experiences. Well...in my high school, we were a pretty close-knit group (I'm a Catholic, if that explains any of this lovey dovey stuff to some of you greedy folk) that hated class but completely understood in our senior year that we would miss our previous days and the days to come....that's why our final days of our senior year was the best. I could only hope that the world see our greedy and ungrateful lives for what they are and change them for the better.

    [QUOTE=mediasi]Calm down - we're all just having discussions here.

    Trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by mediasi
    As for a computer put in *my* head - won't happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by mediasi
    Yes, but thus far, he's the only one to whom you're referring as a resource.
    Well...I wasn't citing him over the economic debate, though. And as for citing others about this economic debate, I don't know of too many people that go around promoting communism. I certainly recall in high school people being blacklisted for promoting such rubbish. But again, the times are changing. I think capitalism could be a necessary step toward what could be (debatably) the next RIGHT economic system.

    Quote Originally Posted by mediasi
    Sorry, but to say communism hasn't succeeded, and because of technology, doesn't make sense. Surely you aren't saying that it would have been impossible for the US to be a communist nation 300 years ago?
    The 2 main reasons I've heard from others and repeatedly from yourselves are: (1) Power wasn't distributed equally, no?? (2) The lack of individuality and diversity, no??

    If you solve those problems, I'm saying that you've got a solution. That solution I'm getting at is us gradually leaving the every man is an island attittude and moving toward a community that's truly connected - not just spiritually any more, but physically and mentally - thanks to the internet and smartphones.

    Quote Originally Posted by mediasi
    And there's the catch - open up the entire government, and you open up more loopholes for terrorists to get through. There is no "all or none" here.
    Really? Do you feel more secure now that your government has passed legislation such as the patriot act? You might....but that's only a FEELING of security. Do you feel more secure now that your government requires you to get to the airport an hour earlier than usual so that they can check every inch of your body and even use X-Ray machines that can see through your clothes?? You might....but again it's just a feeling. You're actually no safer than you were before. If anything...you're less safe because after that entire hour of getting patted down and x-rayed, you're supposed to believe that you ARE safe. So, you prolly ignore stuff you'd pay attention to if you were just walking outside of an airport, like the streets of New Orleans, or any other city for that matter.

    All of that extra searching is wasted, considering if a terrorist were ever to hijack a plan again with boxcutters...the other 85 passengers on the plane would bumrush that mo fo!

    Anyway....an analogy must be necessary now after all that jabber about terrorism. Linux = tons of security & no virii; Windows = no security & tons of virii. You can say it's because less people use Linux, but I say it's because Windows has a crappy design (hence them implementing tons of Unix features, but they will still never have the security that OSS has).
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    What person doesn't throw in their opinion when need be? You're doing it right now.
    No offense, please, but when you someday take an English Lit Class and wind up having to write papers on whether or not the writings of Benjamin Franklin still hold true in modern society, you'll find that just saying what you think and "discussing" and opinion for which you can back up are two different things.

    Your opinion need not need areeable by everyone, but it should be based on in-depth research and experience. Unfortunately, it is true that because of your age (which equals maturity - and DON'T take that the wrong way - I mean educational and "living life" maturity) and that you've already stated you haven't had to take specific classes, you haven't really presented anything that would cause any of us to "think" about your theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    And I'd say most of you guys are shoving down the "you're too damn young and down know how when you'll be a grown up, you'll be just as greedy as us" theory!
    I didn't see it as being focused on greed, but yes, you're young. Keep in mind that some of the people you're talking with here have served in the Armed Forces (which means they have passion for the future of America), have been in the work force for a decade or more (which means they know how the system works), have voted their true conscience in many elections (which means they researched everything before casting that ballot) and are professional writers (which means they know what it means to back up opinions).

    This isn't a slam at you. Don't think many of us weren't as adamant about wanting agreement in the same way you do. But there's a difference between wanting to be right, and being passionate about what you think.

    If you truly believe everything you say is likely, then I would assume that you've heavily researched the subject. If you have not, then you certainly shouldn't be pointing fingers back at those who have many more years of experience under their belts.

    Nonetheless, this is a discussion, so there's no need to hot under the collar. Hey - the freedom to debate at will is another thing that makes us so diverse.

    Pamela
    Using my treo 650 for business:
    DesignExtend.com
  6. #46  
    Now I see your true colors - you're not really about "true communism" you're an ultra liberal who doesn't understand the motivation others have to better themselves is not something you can or should negatively impact through wealth distribution. If you really want to go the way of Communism, you're hope for government control would be a self-fulfilling prophecy, and in my opinion, the only way it will come to pass.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    The 2 main reasons I've heard from others and repeatedly from yourselves are: (1) Power wasn't distributed equally, no?? (2) The lack of individuality and diversity, no??

    If you solve those problems, I'm saying that you've got a solution. That solution I'm getting at is us gradually leaving the every man is an island attittude and moving toward a community that's truly connected - not just spiritually any more, but physically and mentally - thanks to the internet and smartphones.
    Which equals boredom. Right back where we started.

    First, you can't have power without either A) Followers or B) Money.

    Secondly, if everyone is all truly connected - spiritually, physically and mentally - where IS the diversity? Sorry, but the majority of people, though they do seek peace, aren't interested in being all happy and smily all of the time.



    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    Really? Do you feel more secure now that your government has passed legislation such as the patriot act? You might....but that's only a FEELING of security.
    So is love, disgust, anger, adoration, lust, passion, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    Do you feel more secure now that your government requires you to get to the airport an hour earlier than usual so that they can check every inch of your body and even use X-Ray machines that can see through your clothes?? You might....but again it's just a feeling. You're actually no safer than you were before. If anything...you're less safe because after that entire hour of getting patted down and x-rayed, you're supposed to believe that you ARE safe. So, you prolly ignore stuff you'd pay attention to if you were just walking outside of an airport, like the streets of New Orleans, or any other city for that matter.
    Yes, I do feel safer due to additional screenings at airports, and no, I DO NOT ignore my surroundings. I carry my keys a certain way when walking through a parking lot. I check my surroundings whereever I go. Although I will say if it weren't for past stalk and attacking encounters, I may not pay attention to the general population around me. Right back too... we learn from our mistakes and from our pasts.

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    All of that extra searching is wasted, considering if a terrorist were ever to hijack a plan again with boxcutters...the other 85 passengers on the plane would bumrush that mo fo!
    It's not the government's job to leave "justice" to be carried out by the general public, and in many cases, the general public cannot protect themselves (if they could, then two planes wouldn't have made it to the Trade Center).

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    Anyway....an analogy must be necessary now after all that jabber about terrorism. Linux = tons of security & no virii; Windows = no security & tons of virii. You can say it's because less people use Linux, but I say it's because Windows has a crappy design (hence them implementing tons of Unix features, but they will still never have the security that OSS has).
    Which goes to say, let everything be done in equal senses then we might as well forget about true advancements in technology, because besides some peoples needs to just have a sense of accomplishment, where's the motivation? It certainly wouldn't stem from money. So, with that, I ask, would you be fine using the same software and technology in every form as everyone else? If you are, then you're willing to settle for whatever the powers that be say what that technology will be.

    Pamela
    Using my treo 650 for business:
    DesignExtend.com
  8.    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by mediasi
    Sorry, but for whom are you speaking and what, besides your professor are your resources?
    I was referring to ALL americans being greedy and selfish...compared to the rest of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by mediasi
    Most other countries, in a sense, are MORE greedy than us, otherwise they wouldn't need the aide of the US and others to go in and save millions of people being slaughtered or gassed. Sadam's power was about greed. The genocide in Rwanda was about greed. Any time something goes bad and there's looting is about greed. If anything, the US is MORE HELPFUL than many other countries. We've been known to give and give, even when we cannot afford to.
    They aren't greedier than us because they need aide. That's crazy. My mom works for a non-profit agency, but doesn't get healthcare and all the extra crap that business owners like yourself would never need to worry about (slightly off topic, but why don't we have a national healthcare system??). She barely makes enough money to get by because she loves what she does and couldn't afford to pay her medical bills when she had pneumonia. She's a middle-class worker just like 90% of the country that gets the shaft due to the people on the polar ends of our economic system. As for the poor, I could agree that they deserve to be that way, and don't deserve medicaid. But then again...there was obviously something that was f***ed up in their lives that you don't for once consider to stop and empathize with these poor folks.

    Now to take it outside the country. Fidel Castro is greedy, whereas Cubans in general are not greedy, they don't have jack....excluding community and family -- stuff that Americans forget about all the time. Saddam Hussein was geredy, wheras Iraqis in general are not greedy, they don't have jack either...excluding their dirt walls that they stare at when they memorize their geneology to pass on to their children. THEY DON'T HAVE THE SAME OPPORTUNITIES AS YOU AND I -- FACT!

    Going back to America...I would put George W. Bush as the epitome of the generally greedy American. I realize he's not the richest man, but he has abused his power MULTIPLE times in MULTIPLE areas of politics (and even business), whereas Bill Gates (who's prolly second on the list of greedy bastuds) stole something from Jobs ONE time and happened to hit the jackpot since he was a marketing man.

    Quote Originally Posted by mediasi
    To think that given more money other countries would do a turn-around is like saying if we gave Sadam Hussein three trillion dollars he would have stopped the gassing.
    I'm not saying that...I'm saying EVERYBODY SHOULD HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY (in the future, not now; it's not easy to distribute work/power/money evenly without a smartphone attached to everybody)...and shouldn't have any other option...unless, of course, they choose not to work at all and depend on the donations of their friends/family (of which they wouldn't receive many, considering their friends/family make just enough to get by while they work)

    My friend one time told me that people in other countries starving of hunger is NECESSARY because (a) there's not enough food to go around, and (b) we'd be overpopulated...Not to mention this friend was a "religious conservative" (there's a ton of 'em around here in Mississippi). OK...(a) Americans overestimate the amount of food/water it takes to live (not thrive, nor perish...but live)...it's not that much. Americans eat SO MUCH FRIGGIN' FOOD it's surreal....while others starve. It's not even like they even need a fraction of the food that is displayed on most of our waists or the food that we throw away because our eyes somehow or another looked bigger than our already fat stomachs.

    Jesus rationed enough fish and bread for all those who surrounded him to be satisfied...and so too will the world, someday. Like...why is it we can't have a BBQ almost every day of our lives instead of eating and living the way we do?? I roofed for awhile with this black guy that used to live in the Ghetto of New Orleans. He takes me there one time (btw, like it matters...I'm white and I stood out like a sore thumb) and they're having a whole block party BBQ. Easily the best meal of my life...and for the entire community the smallest amount of money was spent on food. I CAN'T GET OVER EXPERIENCES LIKE THAT!! Generally, Americans are greedy -- fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by mediasi
    In short, greed is not just about money. It's also about power.
    They're synonymous in a capitalist environment. No two ways about it.

    I'd really like to continue this conversation, but I really need/have to rest my eyes, brain, and heart....'cause you folks are vicious.

    I'll continue this later tonight or tomorrow.

    -Peace out!
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    I was referring to ALL americans being greedy and selfish...compared to the rest of the world.
    Then get off your computer, hang up your Treo and go do something!

    Peace Out back atcha
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  10. #50  
    Hopeless...chalk one up for NRG and daThomas. Maybe you can move in with Clulup??
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Hopeless...chalk one up for NRG and daThomas. Maybe you can move in with Clulup??
    From what we've seen so far he's even left of them
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    From what we've seen so far he's even left of them
    He makes Marx look like Ayn Rand!
    Last edited by Insertion; 07/10/2005 at 08:23 PM. Reason: My sp311ing is the SuX0r
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  13. #53  
    Now that you've turned this into an "assuming" finger-pointing debate, I'm gonna let'er rip.


    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    I was referring to ALL americans being greedy and selfish...compared to the rest of the world.
    Truly sad, so, in short, all the money any of us donate, and all the charitable organizations in the US, and even the slew of poeple who flew over to Iraq just to help are doing it solely out of greed? Hmm... you're talking to someone who QUIT HER JOB to sit by her dying Aunt for 48 days before she recovered, and another three months while she went through therapy. Someone who quit again when a lady who was like a mother to her died and left her 90-year-old brother (who served in three wars I might add) to take care of EVERYTHING for him (the funeral arrangements, all the household bills and maintenance - and the fighting off all the creditors for things he never "purchased" himself). And who traveled to work from another location for a week at a clip to be by that Aunt in her final months, and who quit working again while her fiance went through 18 months of surgeries to save his sight. Call me greedy that I've learned how to live off peanuts while we loan our truck repeatedly to the neighbors because their vehicles keep breaking down and they are barely making ends meet.



    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    They aren't greedier than us because they need aide.
    Are you kidding yourself? If you're saying that needing aide is an excuse for greediness, then by all means, lets put everyone who applies on welfare. Then you can forget about the US being able to help those other countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    That's crazy. My mom works for a non-profit agency...
    but, I thought she was greedy?

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    , but doesn't get healthcare and all the extra crap that business owners like yourself would never need to worry about ...
    Note to YOU. I drive a 1996 Saturn with 105,000 miles and a 1998 Isuzu which was my now husbands before he went blind. We have both vehicles in case one breaks down (seeing as they both have little value, it's cheaper to have them both then to buy a new one).

    I do NOT have health insurance, we rent our home (NO INsurance) and my employees get paid FIRST.

    Now, yes, my company is successful. But when you spend and lose accumulatively more than $185,000 in 5 years due to things beyond your control (hospital bills, travel, delegating all your work out, and dropping to one income) and still find a way to make sure there's food put on the table and don't seek for handouts in the process, come back and tell me how greedy I am.

    When you love your dog so much you spend $3,000 trying to make her better because she's that important to you - even though you have what other people would call "more important bills to pay" - then you can talk.

    When you reside in a trailer a mile off campus during tornado season when you're putting your own self through college because it's cheaper than the dorm, and have friends bringing you food from their weekend trips home, and still not ask for a handout, tell me I'm the greedy one.

    These things, my friend, are what passionate people about earning their keep and just wanting those around them to have a good life DO.

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    She barely makes enough money to get by because she loves what she does and couldn't afford to pay her medical bills when she had pneumonia. She's a middle-class worker just like 90% of the country that gets the shaft due to the people on the polar ends of our economic system. As for the poor, I could agree that they deserve to be that way, and don't deserve medicaid. But then again...there was obviously something that was f***ed up in their lives that you don't for once consider to stop and empathize with these poor folks.
    I don't for once, WHAT? How about this - when I was 20 years old (making barely anything) there was a family in need living on the streets. I took my entire paycheck and went to Sams and bought them soup, cereal, water, toilet paper and more. Then i delivered it to their house.

    How about the little boy and his mother who couldn't afford squat for Christmas. I wonder how that little boy woke up to a tree, with a slew of presence underneath, and how the mother got and had the pictures developed from disposable cameras.

    Or how the people in the aftermath of a Tornado where I used to live were able to go to a burger shop and eat for FREE (my sister ALSO funded that little outing).

    Or how when someone stops me on the street I NEVER question them, and live by the rule of "they're telling the truth, so I should help...and if they aren't, well I won't take the chance of turning down someone in need).

    I've wandered through hoodtown two days before Thanksgiving to deliver 40 lb bags full of turkey, potatoes and all the trimmings so those less fortunatel could have a meal.

    Are those enough examples? These are things I don't talk about because, honestly, they're pretty much what every decent citizen does. But you've made the assumption that we, as Americans, are not decent as whole. Hopefully in 5 or 10 years you'll look back and see that you were just plain wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    Now to take it outside the country. Fidel Castro is greedy, whereas Cubans in general are not greedy, they don't have jack....excluding community and family -- stuff that Americans forget about all the time. Saddam Hussein was geredy, wheras Iraqis in general are not greedy, they don't have jack either...excluding their dirt walls that they stare at when they memorize their geneology to pass on to their children. THEY DON'T HAVE THE SAME OPPORTUNITIES AS YOU AND I -- FACT!
    They don't have the same opportunities, but to say they don't have thesame problems of people stealing from each other is hogwash. I live in Miami (which, in case you didn't know, is over-populated with Cubans) and, watching the local news, there are just as many Cubans committing crimes as anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    Going back to America...I would put George W. Bush as the epitome of the generally greedy American. I realize he's not the richest man, but he has abused his power MULTIPLE times in MULTIPLE areas of politics (and even business), whereas Bill Gates (who's prolly second on the list of greedy bastuds) stole something from Jobs ONE time and happened to hit the jackpot since he was a marketing man.
    I won't even begin to argue politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    I'm not saying that...I'm saying EVERYBODY SHOULD HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY
    And please explain why people wouldn't steal from each other? Do you honestly think that giving everyone the same amount of money is going to better us all around? If you think Robin-Hooding isn't going to cause more theft and shadiness, then please go back to the history books. While it MIGHT work in some countries who have nothing and experience very little political and public crime, it certainly wouldn't work here. You can't tell people, after all these years of fighting for our rights to enterprise for ourselves that we have to take what we've all earned and divvy it up.

    As you said, your mother CHOOSES to do that job. And I admire her for following her heart and doing what she loves. And what if that job some day dropped a million dollars on her doorstep - you wouldn't want a piece?

    I live in a neighborhood where every single house looks the same, and I hate it. I don't mind that others make more money than I do, and I do my part to help those who can't help themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    My friend one time told me that people in other countries starving of hunger is NECESSARY because (a) there's not enough food to go around, and (b) we'd be overpopulated...Not to mention this friend was a "religious conservative" (there's a ton of 'em around here in Mississippi). OK...(a) Americans overestimate the amount of food/water it takes to live (not thrive, nor perish...but live)...it's not that much. Americans eat SO MUCH FRIGGIN' FOOD it's surreal....while others starve. It's not even like they even need a fraction of the food that is displayed on most of our waists or the food that we throw away because our eyes somehow or another looked bigger than our already fat stomachs.
    So you also want to put a damper on how much food we eat? Or our we going on another path off the original topic?

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    Jesus rationed enough fish and bread for all those who surrounded him to be satisfied...and so too will the world, someday.
    While we like to think that our country's ideals were founded on the philosophy of the Bible, rationality, experience, and the government has proven that we can't use scriptures as a means of determining who should get what. Lets leave religion out of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    Like...why is it we can't have a BBQ almost every day of our lives instead of eating and living the way we do??
    Because not everyone likes BBQs.

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    I roofed for awhile with this black guy that used to live in the Ghetto of New Orleans. He takes me there one time (btw, like it matters...I'm white and I stood out like a sore thumb) and they're having a whole block party BBQ. Easily the best meal of my life...and for the entire community the smallest amount of money was spent on food. I CAN'T GET OVER EXPERIENCES LIKE THAT!! Generally, Americans are greedy -- fact.
    Hmmm, every holiday and many weekends turn into block parties around here. Why don't you have that? I don't know, have you knocked on any neighbors doors to see if they wanted to come out and have some grub?

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    I'd really like to continue this conversation, but I really need/have to rest my eyes, brain, and heart....'cause you folks are vicious.
    You call it vicious, we call it debating. You, however, have made it personal, so adhering with the guidelines of the forums here, I've said my peace and will now bow out.

    Pamela
    Using my treo 650 for business:
    DesignExtend.com
  14. #54  
    I remember when I was 19... (Then again, I was jumping out of airplanes...)

    Here is an overview of my background and how it applies to you, young man.

    Political Science major, Engineering degree: You've got to have a balance in your education. It's kinda like mastering the pitching wedge and calling other golfers fools for carrying around a whole bag of clubs. They were each created to be used for different purposes. Diversity, remember....
    Communism is a great philosophy that breaks down when humans try to apply it. It didn't work in the Soviet Union where they have a great tradition of MAKING things work. It won't work anywhere else because of human nature. It would help if you understood the nature of the political philosophy you were espousing, but, as you've noted, you're not a humanities man. Your spelling could use a little work as well (prolly???). It is your native tongue, after all.

    12 years in our armed forces: I've been hungry (Insertion can relate). Hunger is not something you can relate to until you've felt it, not just read about it. It changes how you see the world. You cannot turn it off. You are correct that we eat a lot in this country. Solutions do not just pour out of identifying the problem. By the way, when a friend invites you to a massive neighborhood BBQ (especially when you're not ONE OF THEM, as you described), I have a hard time squaring that with "All Americans are greedy". Your friend is not, his neighbors are not, your mom is not, you're not, I'm not. Theory and reality often clash outside the ivy walls.

    Months living with Cubans in Gitmo: I lived side by side with thousands of Cubans trying to flee their country. Talked with them every day about their experiences under Castro. They're just like us: they want MORE for their children than they had. That's not greed. They all left because they wanted to improve their families' lives. That's inherent self-improvement and providing for your loved ones. They lived under Communism administered by humans and it didn't suit them. They chose to jump into shark-infested waters (many didn't make it) because the system didn't work.


    Now, I don't want you to lose your enthusiasm or passion for whatever you believe. Many of us out here have lost that awhile ago. However, I encourage you to understand that you've been exposed to one side of the story at your school. I just finished grad school here at UW-Madison (second most liberal campus in US) and I was astonished at how many young people jumped on a bandwagon whenever a viewpoint was given to them (yes, it was spoon-fed) that differed from the mainstream. Young sophomore: "I was shocked when I learned how much I was kept in the dark about _____ until _____ gave this pamphlet with all of the facts!"

    Keep up your fire! Keep asking questions. Accept that you don't have the answers. The fun is in the journey not the destination.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    I remember when I was 19... (Then again, I was jumping out of airplanes...)
    And I was there next to you!

    Everything else you said was spot on. My time in the Service was an eye-opening experience. Not saying you should enlist by any means grndslm, but if you have been to and seen some of the places I and AlaskanDad have, gone through the crap we've been through in the name of Freedom, you'd realize just how wrong you are about this country.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  16.    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Churchill's a wack job. If ya wanna spend your time reading him, you will make da happy, but have wasted an afternoon.
    OK -- Wasn't sure, just looked him up on Wikipedia...the little bit I read didn't mention the words "wack job", but I could see how you'd consider him that for thinking different than most Americans would think.

    But yea, thanks for the advice of saving my afternoon -- it's prolly better spent here on TC watching you guys freak out about a commie.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    OK -- Wasn't sure, just looked him up on Wikipedia...the little bit I read didn't mention the words "wack job", but I could see how you'd consider him that for thinking different than most Americans would think.

    But yea, thanks for the advice of saving my afternoon -- it's prolly better spent here on TC watching you guys freak out about a commie.
    You must be a real scholar. Gonna Wikipedia Ward Churchill
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm
    Now you listen here...just 'cause you like to move good threads out of the area that receives the most attention doesn't mean you can come in this one and say I don't think for myself. ... <snip> ...
    Did I specifically state that you did not think for yourself? And if you did, under what experiences did you based your decisions?

    Tone down your responses, we are all here to discuss. I don't have the habit of telling someone about "Just because you have the authority, you think you are right!" Then I say the same to you, just because you are young, you think you a right. Such responses does not generate a good discussion.

    I find you have a lot of ideas and I expect for you to listen as much as I would for you.
  19. #59  
    True communism is a nice theory, but doesnt work in the real work for a number of reasons:
    Greed, lazyness, individualism, family bonds etc etc.

    The idea of every body sharing what they got and only take what they need simply doesnt work. Survival of the fittest does that to you... every body tries to advance his or his families situation contious or not. It is a very strong force.
    No kind of technology will be able to beat that, man will find a way around it..

    for homework read 1984 and tell us what you thought of that story...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  20.    #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by ronbo2000
    Did I specifically state that you did not think for yourself? And if you did, under what experiences did you based your decisions?
    You didn't specifically state it, but you definitely implied it. Otherwise, there would have been no sense in posting what I had quoted from you.

    Quote Originally Posted by ronbo2000
    Tone down your responses, we are all here to discuss. I don't have the habit of telling someone about "Just because you have the authority, you think you are right!" Then I say the same to you, just because you are young, you think you a right. Such responses does not generate a good discussion.
    I'm sorry but I really can't control my tone when 10 different people reply to my posts at the same time...usually already going over something I thought that I explained. I mean, I don't blame most of you guys for reading this entire thread. These 60 posts have been pretty dern lengthy and it's difficult to narrow down stuff when the opposite side continues to be vague in their descriptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by ronbo2000
    I find you have a lot of ideas and I expect for you to listen as much as I would for you.
    I am...but I'm not seeing your citation of reasons for why communism couldn't be possible with the aide of technology in future generations. The fact is that there's not much of anything written on this. I'll give ya 1984, but that's more big brother stuff, which kinda goes along with the irrelevant of my teacher's comments on us all being borgs in the future. I'll respond to the 1984 question below though...I've already read it, albeit a long time ago.
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