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  1.    #1  
    Some of you may remember the thread with the title "Inane Ramblings". Despite the title, most of it wasn't inane. Now, things seem to have become different. Whatever the title, at least in off topic, many threads quickly fall prey to inane ramblings.

    Also, the happiness of some posters seems to depend on liberal/Democrat bashing, with an increasing number of threads exclusively dedicated to this. Since luckily I am not part of the US political system, I don't feel personally affected, but I do find it annoying because of the space it takes here, and because to me it seems to denigrate e.g. the 48 % of those Americans who voted for the liberal candidate. Of course there are also some "Democratic" posters who sometimes cross the line of decent behaviour, but, by and large, lately they seem to be outnumbered by "conservative" posters of that sort.

    France bashing also seems to have become an obsessive-compulsive behaviour for some posters here. I am not French so I don't really care, but why is it that some can't discuss the Tour de France without (falsly) thinking "It's gotta drive the French crazy that they can't even win their own race against an American!" and bringing their crude political views also into a sports thread?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  2. #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    France bashing also seems to have become an obsessive-compulsive behaviour for some posters here. I am not French so I don't really care, but why is it that some can't discuss the Tour de France without (falsly) thinking "It's gotta drive the French crazy that they can't even win their own race against an American!" and bringing their crude political views also into a sports thread?
    that was not my post, but I do apologize if I did offend you with my posting in the Tour De France thread....but I come from way back before Greg Lemond, when I use to participate in cycle racing. And I guess I still remember the vicious attacks by french fans (physically, verbally, death threats, etc...) and especially by the Media, attacking him with extreme and open anti-American hostility.

    I know things have changed since 1986 in the sport of cycling and the acceptance of Americans in the race, and lot of the French Public have grown to at least respect Lance, especially after they finally saw him suffer last year and still won.....but then last week when the the French government held an independent "random" drup test of tour riders to "represent the field" and then only selected Lance Armstrong ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8464982/page/2/ ), it just kind of reminded me of it all again and of all the attacks by the French press AND Government in 1999-2002 with multiple unfounded drug abuse acusations simply no basis except that because "no man could win the way he does after recovering from cancer".

    To be honest it was a hard battle for Americans to break into the former European exclusive world of cycling (with a lot of trail blazing from Greg and the first American team 7-11) and which came with a lot resistance to be taken seriously, with the French press leading in a strong way for the whole last half of the 80s when Greg Lemond soundly defeated his own teammate Bernard Hinault, the great French Badger.....when Benard broke his promise to support Greg for giving up a Tour victory the year before so Benard could have his 5th win and decided to try for a 6th title instead....and when Greg continued to win it for a total of 3 times, even after recieving a gun shot wound.

    Being totally honest, it has taken them over a decade to warm up to Americans being there, and continued those attacks for the first 3 years that Lance dominated the Tour.

    Here are some articles:

    This shows it getting better as of last year:
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5504912

    ESPN on French Media: http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=1840215
    http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/tex...2002-22972.asp
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/06/2005 at 07:44 AM.
  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I don't feel personally affected, but...
    I am not French so I don't really care, but...
    So why did you feel compelled to start this thread I mean it's not like anybody was talking about the faiilure of Swissair and it's eventual takeover by Lufthansa
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  4. #4  
    I'm not apologizing.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  5.    #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    So why did you feel compelled to start this thread I mean it's not like anybody was talking about the faiilure of Swissair and it's eventual takeover by Lufthansa
    I don't feel personally affected by the posts in my example because I am nor French, and neither a Democrat, but I am affected by inane and denigrating posts all over the place.

    Oh, BTW, I am also not personally affected by Swiss being taken over by Lufthansa, nor would I care about a remark from your side (apart from it being another inane post, I guess). The Swissair management did create a mess a few years ago, no doubt, leading to the bankrupcy of that company, and to the creation of Swiss International Air Lines, which now was taken over by Lufthansa.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I don't feel personally affected by the posts in my example because I am nor French, and neither a Democrat, but I am affected by inane and denigrating posts all over the place..
    You are a champion of those same type of posts. Whenever you have an opportunity to take a shot at the US, you take it. It's just the way you are. Everybody else gets it, sorry you dont know yourself better.

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Oh, BTW, I am also not personally affected by Swiss being taken over by Lufthansa, nor would I care about a remark from your side (apart from it being another inane post, I guess).
    Well being that Swissair was "your" national airline, and to have it be run so poorly that it went bankrupt.

    See that is just an example of the type of posts that you start.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    that was not my post, but I do apologize if I did offend you with my posting in the Tour De France thread....but I come from way back before Greg Lemond, when I use to participate in cycle racing. And I guess I still remember the vicious attacks by french fans (physically, verbally, death threats, etc...) and especially by the Media, attacking him with extreme and open anti-American hostility.

    I know things have changed since 1986 in the sport of cycling and the acceptance of Americans in the race, and lot of the French Public have grown to at least respect Lance, especially after they finally saw him suffer last year and still won.....but then last week when the the French government held an independent "random" drup test of tour riders to "represent the field" and then only selected Lance Armstrong ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8464982/page/2/ ), it just kind of reminded me of it all again and of all the attacks by the French press AND Government in 1999-2002 with multiple unfounded drug abuse acusations simply no basis except that because "no man could win the way he does after recovering from cancer".

    To be honest it was a hard battle for Americans to break into the former European exclusive world of cycling (with a lot of trail blazing from Greg and the first American team 7-11) and which came with a lot resistance to be taken seriously, with the French press leading in a strong way for the whole last half of the 80s when Greg Lemond soundly defeated his own teammate Bernard Hinault, the great French Badger.....when Benard broke his promise to support Greg for giving up a Tour victory the year before so Benard could have his 5th win and decided to try for a 6th title instead....and when Greg continued to win it for a total of 3 times, even after recieving a gun shot wound.

    Being totally honest, it has taken them over a decade to warm up to Americans being there, and continued those attacks for the first 3 years that Lance dominated the Tour.

    Here are some articles:

    This shows it getting better as of last year:
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5504912

    ESPN on French Media: http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=1840215
    http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/tex...2002-22972.asp
    Notice Clulup says nothing of this....

    Once again, anti-Americanism is fine by him.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  8.    #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Notice Clulup says nothing of this....

    Once again, anti-Americanism is fine by him.
    I didn't say anything about HIR's post SO FAR. Besides, what makes you think I am anti-American? Because I tend to think the reasons given for invading Iraq were based on flawed arguments (WMD, Terrorism)? I do, but that hardly counts as being anti-American.

    Because I think the US policy in the Middle East (including Iraq) is not mainly about democracy, but most of all about keeping the oil flowing?

    Because I think Bush is trying to fool himself and the rest of the world about the effects of greenhouse gas emissions? I do, but with good reasons and excellent sources.

    You may not like the things I say, maybe you don't agree with them, but that does not make them anti-American. After all, the US are more than the war in Iraq, support for Saudi-Arabia, holding prisoners in Guantanamo, and other bad examples.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I didn't say anything about HIR's post SO FAR. Besides, what makes you think I am anti-American? Because I tend to think the reasons given for invading Iraq were based on flawed arguments (WMD, Terrorism)? I do, but that hardly counts as being anti-American.

    Because I think the US policy in the Middle East is not about democracy, but about keeping the oil flowing?

    Because I think Bush is trying to fool himself and the rest of the world about the effects of greenhouse gas emissions? I do, but with good reasons and excellent sources.

    You may not like the things I say, maybe you don't agree with them, but that does not make them anti-American. After all, the US are more than the war in Iraq, support for Saudi-Arabia, holding prisoners in Guantanamo, and other bad examples.
    You'll go to great lengths to Google and Wiki any fact or figure you can find that paints a negative picture of the US. Review your posts, and tally the ratio of pro US/Anti US. Do you honestly think it's 50/50?

    I'll be fair though about the above stories by Hobbes, and let you review them if you want.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  10.    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    that was not my post, but I do apologize if I did offend you with my posting in the Tour De France thread....but I come from way back before Greg Lemond, when I use to participate in cycle racing. And I guess I still remember the vicious attacks by french fans (physically, verbally, death threats, etc...) and especially by the Media, attacking him with extreme and open anti-American hostility.
    These examples are about sports and how Lance is perceived by SOME in France - not like the politically motivated previous posts. Anti-Americanism is just as stupid as "anti-France-ism".

    Isn't it ironic though that, judging from the articles you quoted, Greg LeMond seems to one of the strongest critics of Lance Armstrong (regarding alleged use of doping...):
    "LeMond voiced doubts about his fellow American:
    "Lance is ready to do anything to keep his secret," LeMond told the paper. "I don't know how he can continue to convince everybody of his innocence.""

    Traitor!
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  11.    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    You'll go to great lengths to Google and Wiki any fact or figure you can find that paints a negative picture of the US. Review your posts, and tally the ratio of pro US/Anti US. Do you honestly think it's 50/50?
    My posts were about Bush, the war in Iraq, Guantanamo, and other subjects where I disagree with current US policies. That has nothing to do with GENERAL anti-Americanism. I always talk about certain policies or actions, I never denigrate whole groups of people (such as saying all Democrats have an IQ below 100).

    Besides, it is obvious that one discusses things where one disagrees, not where one agrees.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Traitor!
    Hang him now.

    LeMond....the name even SOUNDS French.
    I'm back!
  13. #13  
    Whew, I'm really glad this hasn't become a political thread like all the rest .
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Whew, I'm really glad this hasn't become a political thread like all the rest .
    It's not...clu was just pointing out that he "don't feel personally affected, but..." and that he's "not French so I don't really care, but..."
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  15.    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    It's not...clu was just pointing out that he "don't feel personally affected, but..." and that he's "not French so I don't really care, but..."
    Sorry for repeating myself, but you must have missed my answer to your post above: I don't feel personally affected by the posts in my example because I am nor French, and neither a Democrat, but I am affected by inane and denigrating posts all over the place.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ...but I am affected by inane and denigrating posts all over the place.
    It's a dangerous world out there
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  17. #17  
    Nice effort clulup but as you can see, they abandon all rational when they get their talking points.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    These examples are about sports and how Lance is perceived by SOME in France - not like the politically motivated previous posts. Anti-Americanism is just as stupid as "anti-France-ism".
    Did you read my post? Yes, as I stated I posted the more positive ones showing a better reception in France NOW....but man, did you catch the morning paper the day after Lance's first 3 tours in France? Those are the real ones that I was referring to, but now are surprising harder to find being 6 years old with Lance and 25 years old with Lemond.

    And as far as Lemond (who is American with a last name that means "The World" in French). They were ruthless to Greg when he put Hinault back in is place.

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Isn't it ironic though that, judging from the articles you quoted, Greg LeMond seems to one of the strongest critics of Lance Armstrong (regarding alleged use of doping...):
    "LeMond voiced doubts about his fellow American:
    "Lance is ready to do anything to keep his secret," LeMond told the paper. "I don't know how he can continue to convince everybody of his innocence.""

    Traitor!
    I full agree!!!!! Again, fully unfounded except for "no man could win the way he does after recovering from cancer" theory. But to slander anybody, let alone arguably the greatest athlete on the planet, on just an opinion is a very becoming trait for a former Tour champion, who himself came back after a gun shot wound and surgery and won 2 times, and especially for the French MSM.

    Of course you must of missed the example in my articles I posted of the French TV crew basically breaking into Lance's room because they were sure they could catch him with evidence of doping?
  19. #19  
    This is to no one in particular (although I had to look up the definition of inane because I thought clulup misspelled it ;-)...hence it became a vocabulary issue for me. ;-)

    No matter where each person sits on each particular issue...it seems to be the nature of the off topic threads that pretty much everyone expresses an opinion. Is it ok to question why? Sure...I just dont take it too seriously (and neither should anyone else).

    IMO few people are willing to seriously question why they believe something...and for them, I guess its ok.
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  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    it seems to be the nature of the off topic threads that pretty much everyone expresses an opinion. Is it ok to question why? Sure...I just dont take it too seriously (and neither should anyone else).

    IMO few people are willing to seriously question why they believe something...and for them, I guess its ok.
    Heck, there are a lot of people on this forum that have a firm opinion on an issue, and will express it......but are still willing to discuss it in a positive manner to either help explain why the feel that way or trying to understand why someone else holds their opinion.

    Sure there are many who sit on one side or another of an issue, but are not close minded to the point that they cannot comprehend that there is another opinion besides theirs.....and that it might actually have some valid points.
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