View Poll Results: Which one is going to jail for Treason?

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  • Karl Rove

    26 61.90%
  • "Scooter" Libby

    12 28.57%
  • John Bolton

    4 9.52%
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  1. NRG
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       #281  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    from todays Washington Post:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...041100879.html


    Conflicting Stories

    The special prosecutor investigating the Plame leak case may be considering obstruction of justice or perjury charges.

    By Dan Froomkin

    Special to washingtonpost.com
    Friday, July 22, 2005; 1:22 PM

    New reports today indicate that special prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald is zeroing in on conflicting stories officials and reporters have provided his grand jury, lending credence to the theory that he may be considering obstruction of justice or perjury charges against top White House officials...

    ... but which now could be turning into another testament to the Washington maxim that the cover-up is always worse than the crime.

    White House chief political strategist Karl Rove reportedly told the grand jury that he first learned of Valerie Plame's identity from columnist Robert Novak -- but Novak's version of the story is that Rove already knew about her when the two spoke.

    Rove didn't mention his conversation with Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper to investigators at first and then said it was primarily about welfare reform. But Cooper has testified that the topic of welfare reform didn't came up.
    You might want to slim down your quote to 4 paragraphs to avoid copyright infringement.
  2. NRG
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       #282  
    Oh Wow! They are going to hold congressional hearing on issues raised by the CIA leak and put a more clearer defined law on the books.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston.com
    Congress plans to scrutinize Plame-related issues
    By David Morgan | July 25, 2005

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Congress will conduct a series of hearings on national security and espionage issues raised by the CIA-leak controversy surrounding senior Bush adviser Karl Rove, officials said on Monday.

    The House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence plans hearings on potential national security threats posed by leaks, including leaks to the media, and will aim to toughen legislation barring the unauthorized disclosure of classified information.

    "It's time there's a comprehensive law that will make it easier for the government to prosecute wrongdoers and increase the penalties that hopefully will act as a deterrent," said Rep. Pete Hoekstra of Michigan, the panel's Republican chairman.
    http://www.boston.com/news/politics/...elated_issues/
    Think again. Look at the last paragraph of the article.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston.com
    Meanwhile, Hoekstra's counterpart in the Senate, Republican Sen. Pat Roberts of Kansas, intends to preside over hearings on the intelligence community's use of covert protections for CIA agents and others involved in secret activities.

    The chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence could hold hearings on the use of espionage cover soon after the U.S. Congress returns from its August recess, said Roberts spokeswoman Sarah Little.

    Little said the Senate committee would also review the probe of special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, who has been investigating the Plame case for nearly two years.
    http://www.boston.com/news/politics/...elated_issues/
    So when does the smear campign start against Fitz. Or is this a little more dubious to the point of granting immunity to Rove, Libby et al.? Reference the Iran-Contra hearings and charges being dropped against Ollie North.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia.org
    In November 1986, North was fired by President Reagan, and in July 1987 he was summoned to testify before televised hearings of a joint Congressional committee formed to investigate Iran-Contra. During the hearings, he admitted that he had lied to Congress, for which he was later charged. He defended his actions by stating that he believed in the goal of aiding the Contras, whom he saw as "freedom fighters," and said that he viewed the illegal Iran-Contra scheme as a "neat idea."

    North was tried in 1988 in relation to his activities while at the National Security Council. He was indicted on sixteen felony counts and on May 4, 1989, he was convicted of three: accepting an illegal gratuity, aiding and abetting in the obstruction of a congressional inquiry, and destruction of documents. He was sentenced by U.S. District Judge Gerhard A. Gesell on July 5, 1989, to a three-year suspended prison term, two years probation, $150,000 in fines, and 1,200 hours community service.

    However, on July 20, 1990, a three-judge appeals panel overturned North's conviction in advance of further proceedings on the grounds that his public testimony may have prejudiced his right to a fair trial. [1] The Supreme Court declined to review the case, and Judge Gesell dismissed the charges on September 16, 1991, after hearings on the immunity issue, on the motion of the independent counsel.

    Essentially, North's convictions were overturned because he had been granted limited immunity for his Congressional testimony, and this testimony was deemed to have influenced witnesses at his trial.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_...-Contra_Affair

    My guess would be the latter.
  3. NRG
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       #283  
    For the morning crowd.
  4. #284  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Oh Wow! They are going to hold congressional hearing on issues raised by the CIA leak ...

    So when does the smear campign start against Fitz. Or is this a little more dubious to the point of granting immunity to Rove, Libby et al.? Reference the Iran-Contra hearings and charges being dropped against Ollie North.

    When you started this thread a month ago, I reckoned that there was like maybe a 5-10% chance that Rove and co. would be indicted.

    I'd wager its getting up past 70% now -- particularly for Obstruction of justice and/or perjury.

    The repubs are sniffing that as well, which is subtext of your citation.

    They might well pull a sleazy "Ollie North" move for Rove and co. -- giving them "limited immunity" which becomes the basis for overturning their convictions.

    A group who can intend to change their own rules to allow their leader (Delay) to remain in power after he's been indicted, are capable of literally anything.
    Last edited by BARYE; 07/27/2005 at 01:18 AM.
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  5. #285  
    no doubt the discussion of pit bulls and "eagles" is more interesting, but here's some more from the Wash. Post that further supports the likelihood of indictments -- as well as the probable exposure of generalissimo bush's lies.


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...072602069.html

    Prosecutor In CIA Leak Case Casting A Wide Net: White House Effort To Discredit Critic Examined in Detail

    By Walter Pincus and Jim VandeHei
    Washington Post
    Wed. July 27, 2005; A01


    ...special prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald has asked not only about how CIA operative Valerie Plame's name was leaked but also how the administration went about shifting responsibility from the White House to the CIA for having included 16 words in the 2003 State of the Union address about Iraqi efforts to acquire uranium from Africa, an assertion that was later disputed.

    ...Fitzgerald appears to believe that Miller's conversations may help him get to the bottom of the leak and the damage-control campaign undertaken by senior Bush officials that week.

    Using background conversations with at least three journalists and other means, Bush officials attacked Wilson's credibility. They said that his 2002 trip to Niger was a boondoggle arranged by his wife, but CIA officials say that is incorrect. One reason for the confusion about Plame's role is that she had arranged a trip for him to Niger three years earlier on an unrelated matter, CIA officials told The Washington Post.

    ...Lawyers have confirmed that Novak discussed Plame with White House senior adviser Karl Rove four or more days before the column identifying her ran...

    ...In a strange twist in the investigation, the grand jury -- acting on a tip from Wilson -- has questioned a person who approached Novak on Pennsylvania Avenue on July 8, 2003, six days before his column appeared in The Post and other publications, Wilson said in an interview. The person, whom Wilson declined to identify to The Post, asked Novak about the "yellow cake" uranium matter and then about Wilson, Wilson said. He first revealed that conversation in a book he wrote last year. In the book, he said that he tried to reach Novak on July 8, and that they finally connected on July 10. In that conversation, Wilson said that he did not confirm his wife worked for the CIA but that Novak told him he had obtained the information from a "CIA source."

    Novak told the person that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA as a specialist in weapons of mass destruction and had arranged her husband's trip to Niger, Wilson said. Unknown to Novak, the person was a friend of Wilson and reported the conversation to him, Wilson said.

    ...Harlow, the former CIA spokesman, said in an interview yesterday that he testified last year before a grand jury about conversations he had with Novak at least three days before the column was published. He said he warned Novak, in the strongest terms he was permitted to use without revealing classified information, that Wilson's wife had not authorized the mission and that if he did write about it, her name should not be revealed.

    Harlow said that after Novak's call, he checked Plame's status and confirmed that she was an undercover operative. He said he called Novak back to repeat that the story Novak had related to him was wrong and that Plame's name should not be used. But he did not tell Novak directly that she was undercover because that was classified.

    ...Based on the questions they have been asked, people involved in the case believe that Fitzgerald looked into this bureaucratic fight because the effort to discredit Wilson was part of the larger campaign to distance Bush from the Niger controversy.

    ...the White House responded with twin attacks: one on Wilson and the other on the CIA, which it wanted to take the blame for allowing the 16 words to remain in Bush's speech. As part of this effort, then-deputy national security adviser Stephen J. Hadley spoke with Tenet during the week about clearing up CIA responsibility for the 16 words, even though both knew the agency did not think Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger, according to a person familiar with the conversation. Tenet was interviewed by prosecutors, but it is not clear whether he appeared before the grand jury, a former CIA official said...
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  6. #286  
    The NY Times and Salon magazine published articles talking about a 3rd gov't official who pushed info outing the CIA agent, Valerie Plame.

    I have no insight into the significance of this "Third Man" -- except that it reveals a concerted forceful conspiracy to use this treachery as a weapon with which to undermine Ambassador Wilson's credibility.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/28/politics/28leak.html?

    Case of C.I.A. Officer's Leaked Identity Takes New Turn

    By DOUGLAS JEHL
    Published: July 28, 2005

    WASHINGTON, July 26 - In the same week in July 2003 in which Bush administration officials told a syndicated columnist and a Time magazine reporter that a C.I.A. officer had initiated her husband's mission to Niger, an administration official provided a Washington Post reporter with a similar account.

    The first two episodes, involving the columnist Robert D. Novak and the reporter Matthew Cooper, have become the subjects of intense scrutiny in recent weeks. But little attention has been paid to what The Post reporter, Walter Pincus, has recently described as a separate exchange on July 12, 2003.

    In that exchange, Mr. Pincus says, "an administration official, who was talking to me confidentially about a matter involving alleged Iraqi nuclear activities, veered off the precise matter we were discussing and told me that the White House had not paid attention" to the trip to Niger by Joseph C. Wilson IV "because it was a boondoggle arranged by his wife, an analyst with the agency who was working on weapons of mass destruction."...

    Mr. Pincus has not identified his source to the public. But a review of Mr. Pincus's own accounts and those of other people with detailed knowledge of the case strongly suggest that his source was neither Karl Rove, Mr. Bush's top political adviser, nor I. Lewis Libby, the chief of staff to Vice President **** Cheney, and was in fact a third administration official whose identity has not yet been publicly disclosed...


    http://www.salon.com/politics/war_ro...cus/index.html


    The Third man?

    ...The "administration official" who spoke with Pincus, who has yet to be identified, told him that Wilson's trip to Niger to investigate the nuclear material claim was "a boondoggle arranged by his wife, an analyst with the agency who was working on weapons of mass destruction," according to Pincus' account. Apparently there is strong evidence to suggest that this unknown official is neither Rove nor Libby, the two White House officials that are known to have discussed Wilson's wife with other journalists.

    Could this unknown administration official be the same "no partisan gunslinger" that Robert Novak has described as the other source for his column that ultimately outed Wilson's wife as a CIA employee? Pincus' exchange apparently occurred on July 12, 2003, two days before Novak's column was published, referring to her as "an agency operative on weapons of mass destruction." And Pincus' source used similar language just days before -- that she was "an analyst" working on weapons of mass destruction.

    Now, it has been established that Rove was already one of two sources that spoke to Novak about Wilson's wife, but the Times article notes that, Rove merely "confirmed information that Mr. Novak already had." So who was this other source? Is this the same administration official who spoke to Pincus? Is this person a focus of special prosecutor Fitzgerald's investigation? The Plame plot thickens.

    -- J.J. Helland
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  7. #287  
    It does make you wonder I guess on how many people were telling people about Plame?

    I think in the end, nothing will happen. The burden of proof is high for the criminal charge and Pres. Bush more likely than not will not do anything to Rove. Just my .02
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  8. #288  
    Agreed, T2. The burden of proof is not met, except in the media trial court.

    Meanwhile, I'm waiting for the Leftists on this board to discover the Sandy Berger case.
  9. NRG
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       #289  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    It does make you wonder I guess on how many people were telling people about Plame?

    I think in the end, nothing will happen. The burden of proof is high for the criminal charge and Pres. Bush more likely than not will not do anything to Rove. Just my .02
    T2, I think we will see different charges than that of leaking, because as you state the burden of proof is rather high, but how would I know, I am not the prosecutor. What I think we will see is perjury or conspiracy charges. I say conspiracy because there are so many folks in the white house involved and they seem to be coordinated (i.e. one would contact a reporter while another would confirm, all the while being sure not to contact the sme reporter). Mind you I am just discerning this form info that has leaked or availible to me.
  10. NRG
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       #290  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Agreed, T2. The burden of proof is not met, except in the media trial court.
    How would you know if the burden of proof is not met? Do you know something we don't? Simple as this, none of us know and we won't know till the investigation is done.

    Meanwhile, I'm waiting for the Leftists on this board to discover the Sandy Berger case.
    Again, 1911 you seem to dragging in something else that has nothing to do with this. Fact is CIA requested this investigation(Plame), the Sandy Berger deal they did not. The only people that made any noise was the righties.
  11. #292  
    "The only people that made any noise was the righties."

    Right. Not the National Archives people. Not the FBI. Not the court where he made his shameful plea bargain deal. Most importantly, not the media.

    The man was stealing, and destroying, code word level documents concerning the Clinton administration's efforts against terrorism. Somehow you people can't get too excited about that. But what will amount to be the inadvertent (at worst) leak of a 5th rate CIA player gets into the press, suddenly it is the end of the world.

    Tell me, where do you come down on the whole Alger Hiss thing?
  12. #293  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    "The only people that made any noise was the righties."

    Right. Not the National Archives people. Not the FBI. Not the court where he made his shameful plea bargain deal. Most importantly, not the media.

    The man was stealing, and destroying, code word level documents concerning the Clinton administration's efforts against terrorism. Somehow you people can't get too excited about that. But what will amount to be the inadvertent (at worst) leak of a 5th rate CIA player gets into the press, suddenly it is the end of the world.

    Tell me, where do you come down on the whole Alger Hiss thing?
    Alger Hiss ?? how do you feel the leak about Galileo to the Pope ??
    Last edited by BARYE; 07/29/2005 at 10:49 AM.
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  13. NRG
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       #294  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    "The only people that made any noise was the righties."

    Right. Not the National Archives people. Not the FBI. Not the court where he made his shameful plea bargain deal. Most importantly, not the media.

    The man was stealing, and destroying, code word level documents concerning the Clinton administration's efforts against terrorism. Somehow you people can't get too excited about that. But what will amount to be the inadvertent (at worst) leak of a 5th rate CIA player gets into the press, suddenly it is the end of the world.

    Tell me, where do you come down on the whole Alger Hiss thing?
    Tell me how you come to the conclusion she is a fifth rate CIA agent? All I know is she worked on "Keeping WMDs out of the hands of people such as terrorist", that sounds pretty important to me.
  14. #295  
    She worked in the WMD office at CIA as an analyst. This is the same office that assured Tenent, who assured Bush, that Iraq's WMD program was a slam dunk.

    She is also a big time Dem. Who do you think Judith Miller is protecting?
  15. NRG
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       #296  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    She worked in the WMD office at CIA as an analyst. This is the same office that assured Tenent, who assured Bush, that Iraq's WMD program was a slam dunk.

    She is also a big time Dem. Who do you think Judith Miller is protecting?
    I would venture to say Miller is protecting the intial source of the leak. Who that maybe, who knows. What I would like to know is who the source of the "Niger document" was, in other words who forged it and why. My guess would be that Chalabi is mixed up in the leak somehow, since he was buddy buddy with Miller.
  16. #297  
    Interesting reading here. Amicus brief by 36 news organizations, stating that no law was broken.

    http://www.bakerlaw.com/files/tbl_s10News/FileUpload44/10159/Amici%20Brief%20032305%20(Final).PDF
  17. NRG
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       #298  
    would this be James Baker's law firm?
  18. NRG
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       #299  
    Just a kick for things are starting to get heated up. Is there a problem with the GOP?
  19. #300  
    It must be that darn "Culture of Corruption."
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