View Poll Results: Which one is going to jail for Treason?

Voters
42. You may not vote on this poll
  • Karl Rove

    26 61.90%
  • "Scooter" Libby

    12 28.57%
  • John Bolton

    4 9.52%
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  1. #261  
    It is so funny to see leftists shrieking about national security when in years past they would have celebrated the outing of a CIA agent. (Which Plame hadn't been for over five years when Rove told the NYT reporter that he had heard Wilson's wife worked for the Agency.)

    Geez, it was just two months ago you guys were screaming for Tom Delay's head. When will you guys catch on that your shrill squeals just don't appeal to the electorate?
  2. #262  
    Why is special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald pursuing so zealously the outing of CIA officer Valerie Plame, since it is all but impossible to prove that the leaker or leakers committed a crime?

    The Intelligence Identities Protection Act requires that the leaker have learned the identity of a "covert agent" from authorized sources. And it requires that the leak be deliberate.

    The law defines a "covert agent" as someone working undercover overseas, or who has done so in the last five years. Plame had operated under non-official cover, but was outed by CIA traitor Aldrich Ames, and has been manning a desk at CIA headquarters since 1997.

    So why is Fitzgerald acting like Inspector Javert in "Les Miserables"? The answer may lie in a sentence Walter Pincus of The Washington Post wrote on June 12, 2003. First, some background:

    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05198/538809.stm

    Any bets that Plame leaked the info on the Italian forgeries to her husband?
  3. #263  
    I think the Left should focus their efforts on a real agenda. Outside of the Beltway and the political geeks, nobody gives a crap about this. Nobody cared about Billy Dale, or the 900 FBI files, nobody cares about this either.

    Add to the equation that nobody seems to have a clue as to what this woman was. She was either a full blown Spook, or a janitor, or anything in between, depending on which side of the arguement you fall on.
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  4. NRG
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       #264  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    It is so funny to see leftists shrieking about national security when in years past they would have celebrated the outing of a CIA agent. (Which Plame hadn't been for over five years when Rove told the NYT reporter that he had heard Wilson's wife worked for the Agency.)
    Would have celebrated a CIA outing? Please tell me how you come to this conclusion?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Geez, it was just two months ago you guys were screaming for Tom Delay's head.
    It is so hard to keep up with your all's behavior. It just seems to be one thing after another.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    When will you guys catch on that your shrill squeals just don't appeal to the electorate?
    1911. I guess you and a lot (R)s just do not get the fact that the dems did not start this investagation, the CIA did. I would guess that the CIA's legal department would know better than you or I if a crime was commited, don't you think.


    Also lying and outing a CIA agent for political purposes doesn't appeal to the people.
  5. #265  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I guess you and a lot (R)s just do not get the fact that the dems did not start this investagation, the CIA did. I would guess that the CIA's legal department would know better than you or I if a crime was commited, don't you think.
    Then why were so many Dem leaders demanding Rove to be fired 2 weeks ago? Did they have an inside to his guilt then? Do they have solid confirmation now?

    No matter what side it is, I hate it when they DEMAND so-and-so MUST be fired or MUST resign because they KNOW (deep down in their heart) he/she MUST be guilty. When in reality the trial, jury, and verdict are all done through pre-mature or developing stories through the press....when it is obvious that all the facts are still coming in. Expressing your opinion or standing on a situation is one thing....but the Dems did jump the gun to the extreme in this case with naked political drueling.
  6. #266  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Then why were so many Dem leaders demanding Rove to be fired 2 weeks ago?
    My guess is that most of the Congress already knew that Rove revealed her identity to the reporter...the question then became if he knew she was covert.

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Did they have an inside to his guilt then?
    Im guessing yes. The media hasnt let up on this story so I would bet that someone is leaking the details out concerning the investigation as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Do they have solid confirmation now?
    I think its pretty clear that Rove and Libby both revealed Plame's identity right? Or do you think otherwise? I don't personally think they have a criminal case against Rove or Libby.

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    No matter what side it is, I hate it when they DEMAND so-and-so MUST be fired or MUST resign because they KNOW (deep down in their heart) he/she MUST be guilty. When in reality the trial, jury, and verdict are all done through pre-mature or developing stories through the press....when it is obvious that all the facts are still coming in. Expressing your opinion or standing on a situation is one thing....but the Dems did jump the gun to the extreme in this case with naked political drueling.
    There is no doubt about this. The question now is what is Pres. Bush going to do. (Especially since he took a tough stance on this before and recently has eased up on what the repercussions would be if they were involved.

    NRG: I like the letter. I didnt know that the Executive Order had a much lower burden of proof (knowingly versus negligently).
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  7. #267  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I think the Left should focus their efforts on a real agenda. Outside of the Beltway and the political geeks, nobody gives a crap about this.
    What they cant multi-task?
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  8. #268  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    What they cant multi-task?
    Not until Cobalt. :-)
  9. #269  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    Not until Cobalt. :-)
    What? Doesnt Ptunes running in the background with Chatter popping up while I surf the TC on the mobile version work? (JK)

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  10. NRG
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       #270  
    Precedent was set a few years ago. Just some info for you folks.

    I am referring to the prosecution and conviction of Jonathan Randel. Randel was a Drug Enforcement Agency analyst, a PhD in history, working in the Atlanta office of the DEA. Randel was convinced that British Lord Michael Ashcroft (a major contributor to Britain's Conservative Party, as well as American conservative causes) was being ignored by DEA, and its investigation of money laundering. (Lord Ashcroft is based in South Florida and the off-shore tax haven of Belize.)

    Randel leaked the fact that Lord Ashcroft's name was in the DEA files, and this fact soon surfaced in the London news media. Ashcroft sued, and learned the source of the information was Randel. Using his clout, soon Ashcroft had the US Attorney in pursuit of Randel for his leak.

    By late February 2002, the Department of Justice indicted Randel for his leaking of Lord Ashcroft's name. It was an eighteen count "kitchen sink" indictment; they threw everything they could think of at Randel. Most relevant for Karl Rove's situation, Court One of Randel's indictment alleged a violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 641. This is a law that prohibits theft (or conversion for one's own use) of government records and information for non-governmental purposes. But its broad language covers leaks, and it has now been used to cover just such actions.

    Randel, faced with a life sentence (actually, 500 years) if convicted on all counts, on the advice of his attorney, pleaded guilty to violating Section 641. On January 9, 2003, Randel was sentenced to a year in a federal prison, followed by three years probation. This sentence prompted the US Attorney to boast that the conviction of Randel made a good example of how the Bush Administration would handle leakers.

    http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/071505E.shtml
  11. #271  
    in case anyone is interested, I'll share a little of the gossip amongst some of the semi-informed with whom I occasionally talk here in Wash. DC:

    Novak is believed to have been talking to the prosecutors from the beginning -- but has attempted to spin his "testimony" as favorably as he can for Rove. (speculation is that he has a deniable backdoor intermediary to Rove's lawyer, from whom he has learnt how things should be spun: i.e. that it was Novak who gave Rove the name of Wilson's wife etc.)

    Though prosecutors are uncomfortable with Novak's veracity, they don't think what Cooper has given them is sufficient in of itself to bring a criminal indictment against such senior gov't officials.

    This is the context as to why prosecutors want desperately to get Judith Miller's testimony: they want to know whether or not her story re-enforces Cooper's or Novak's.

    if the investigation can establish that Rove (and others) have knowingly given misleading under oath testimony to investigators and the grand jury, it could be the basis for an obstruction of justice charge.

    They would likely not proceed with that charge though unless they thought that they could also establish the original "outing" allegation.

    The Grand Jury is scheduled to finish its work in a few months -- about the same time that the new court nominee should be taking his seat on the court. We should learn about then if any of this gossip has any truth behind it.
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  12. NRG
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       #272  
    Front Page
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...072002517.html

    Plame's Identity Marked As Secret
    Memo Central to Probe Of Leak Was Written By State Dept. Analyst

    By Walter Pincus and Jim VandeHei
    Thursday, July 21, 2005; Page A01

    A classified State Department memorandum central to a federal leak investigation contained information about CIA officer Valerie Plame in a paragraph marked "(S)" for secret, a clear indication that any Bush administration official who read it should have been aware the information was classified, according to current and former government officials.

    Plame -- who is referred to by her married name, Valerie Wilson, in the memo -- is mentioned in the second paragraph of the three-page document, which was written on June 10, 2003, by an analyst in the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR), according to a source who described the memo to The Washington Post.

    The paragraph identifying her as the wife of former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV was clearly marked to show that it contained classified material at the "secret" level, two sources said. The CIA classifies as "secret" the names of officers whose identities are covert, according to former senior agency officials.

    Anyone reading that paragraph should have been aware that it contained secret information, though that designation was not specifically attached to Plame's name and did not describe her status as covert, the sources said. It is a federal crime, punishable by up to 10 years in prison, for a federal official to knowingly disclose the identity of a covert CIA official if the person knows the government is trying to keep it secret.

    -snip-




    And a little cartoon for you folks. I like how it depicts Bush as trying to distract.

  13. NRG
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       #273  
    Tee He He He!!!!

    NOTE: THIS IS NOT MY AUCTION




    Karl Rove is Toast - - with Don King Hair !!!!!




    Just behind the toast itself a picture of the actual toast is centered within the text background matt...in the frame.

    I have signed the background printed matt paper, as the artist "who dun it" .

    This ebay ad toast-art, framed and complete would look very nice next to a small printout of this actual ebay ad page, after auction is ended, which naturally will show the ebay user i.d. name of the winning bidder, the number of bids, the ebay ad serial number, and the final price, as well as every other relevent else. Historic ! Is it a Neo-American Folk Art Original ? .. YES.....museum piece ? Time will tell.

    NOTE: Don't Eat This Toast EVER.

    List of ingrediants: wry milk bread/toast, Ink from a Sharpie Pen (They say it writes on anything, why not toast too?) chromium wire, dog hair, Elmers White Paper Glue, and Polyurathane Clear Satin Sprayed-On Varnish on both sides. This has been outgassing for a couple days now, and today just put into the frame. IT should last centuries with normal care.
  14. #274  
    Leftists eviscerated the CIA in the 70's, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of agents overseas. Now look at the crocodile tears flowing over this one non-event.

    NRG, just the other day you posted an article alleging the administration influenced the Iraqi elections. You thought that was terrible. Here we have a case of a rogue element within the CIA trying to influence OUR elections with a sustained campaign of leaks and lies, yet you seem OK with it.

    Also, since protecting national secrets is such a concern for you, what do you think should happen to Sandy Berger?
  15. NRG
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       #275  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Leftists eviscerated the CIA in the 70's, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of agents overseas. Now look at the crocodile tears flowing over this one non-event.

    NRG, just the other day you posted an article alleging the administration influenced the Iraqi elections. You thought that was terrible. Here we have a case of a rogue element within the CIA trying to influence OUR elections with a sustained campaign of leaks and lies, yet you seem OK with it.

    Also, since protecting national secrets is such a concern for you, what do you think should happen to Sandy Berger?
    Nice "chewbacca defense" Just like the right you represent, Squirm, throw mud, address anything else but the charges at hand. The CIA had no beef with Sandy Berger, but they did with the leaking of one of their covert agents. Try and prove that Karl, Libby, etc. are innocent instead of trying to justify it by throwing mud.


    P.S. I am still waiting for some reading on the "left" killing hundres of agents.
    Last edited by NRG; 07/21/2005 at 11:29 AM.
  16. NRG
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       #276  
    Let's see how today's press conference goes since there is new info out about.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/live.v.html
  17. #277  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Nice "chewbacca defense" Just like the right you represent, Squirm, throw mud, address anything else but the charges at hand. The CIA had no beef with Sandy Berger, but they did with the leaking of one of their covert agents. Try and prove that Karl, Libby, etc. are innocent instead of trying to justify it by throwing mud.


    P.S. I am still waiting for some reading on the "left" killing hundres of agents.
    Again I think it is absolutely HILARIOUS that a Lefty like you is taking up for the CIA. Really, the irony is almost too much.

    Regarding the history of that Agency, Admiral Turner, Carter's director, cut CIA's HUMINT collection staff by 850, via computer generated form letter. (I guess that was pretty high tech back then.) When those guys were let go, the agent strings they were running in Eastern Europe fell apart, and the Russkies rolled those guys right into the Gulags. Of course, many on the left hailed this is a great victory.

    Part of what drove Turner was the hue and cry of the Church Committee hearings...Leftist CIA hating Democrats. Turner also disliked secrecy, which one would think would make him a less than ideal candidate for such a job. Still, Jimmy's Academy classmate got the nod, and we lost an entire generation of HUMINT professionals.

    Can you prove that Rove read the memo the WaPo received via leak? Of course not. Your hatred of Rove and Bush has you grasping at any straw...you resemble the "black helicopter fearing right wing militia more every day. And you can use net-nerd terminology all you want, but the real bottom line of this case is that a rogue element of the CIA used a washed up diplomat to leak patently untrue information in order to damage a president during an election year. If something like that happened in Chile you'd be up in arms...but since they tried to slam a Republican that is thrashing your party at every level across the country, well, it's OK.

    As far as the Agency and Berger, they don't have a dog in that fight. The 9/11 Committee and the National Archives do, as well as the FBI. The man STOLE codeword classified documents and DESTROYED them during an investigation into one of this country's most damaging intelligence failures. Why do you think he'd do that? What end would that serve? And it looks like he's going to get a wrist slap.
  18. NRG
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       #278  
    I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing
    the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious, of traitors.

    G.H.W. Bush, speaking at the dedication of the George Bush Center for Intelligence, 4/26/99.

    http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affair...ch_042699.html
  19. #279  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Again I think it is absolutely HILARIOUS that a Lefty like you is taking up for the CIA. Really, the irony is almost too much.

    Regarding the history of that Agency, Admiral Turner, Carter's director, cut CIA's HUMINT collection staff by 850, via computer generated form letter. (I guess that was pretty high tech back then.) When those guys were let go, the agent strings they were running in Eastern Europe fell apart, and the Russkies rolled those guys right into the Gulags. Of course, many on the left hailed this is a great victory.

    Part of what drove Turner was the hue and cry of the Church Committee hearings...Leftist CIA hating Democrats. Turner also disliked secrecy, which one would think would make him a less than ideal candidate for such a job. Still, Jimmy's Academy classmate got the nod, and we lost an entire generation of HUMINT professionals.

    Can you prove that Rove read the memo the WaPo received via leak? Of course not. Your hatred of Rove and Bush has you grasping at any straw...you resemble the "black helicopter fearing right wing militia more every day. And you can use net-nerd terminology all you want, but the real bottom line of this case is that a rogue element of the CIA used a washed up diplomat to leak patently untrue information in order to damage a president during an election year. If something like that happened in Chile you'd be up in arms...but since they tried to slam a Republican that is thrashing your party at every level across the country, well, it's OK.

    As far as the Agency and Berger, they don't have a dog in that fight. The 9/11 Committee and the National Archives do, as well as the FBI. The man STOLE codeword classified documents and DESTROYED them during an investigation into one of this country's most damaging intelligence failures. Why do you think he'd do that? What end would that serve? And it looks like he's going to get a wrist slap.

    much of what you write has the tone of parody to it -- so perhaps I'm missing your intended irony.

    Berger was not destroying or leaking information -- nor was he attempting to obstruct the investigation into bush's calamitous terrorism blunders. Apparently he wanted to take copies of his own papers from the archive so that he could more easily work from them. Stupid, and silly -- of course -- but a non-event in the criminal sense. He would not have been even given that wrist slap had the republicans not attempted to use him during the campaign to distract from the unforgivable failures of bush and company.

    Going back 30 years to Carter & Turner ??? --

    Hardly relevant to today -- aside from the fact that the greatest terrorist threat then came from the rise of the extremists of IRAN -- The SAME extremists who are now in power there.

    Oh btw -- Iran (and its extremists) are the victors of generalissimo bush's little war.

    And how was it that the extremists originally came to power in Iran ?? Maybe you recall how republican neo-cons (including Kissinger etc.) conspired with the deposed Shah to promulgate the lie that he could only get treated for his illness here in america.

    Our inviting him into the US provoked the takeover of our embassy -- and the overthrow of the western oriented group who had initially taken power from the Shah. (people who the extremists later murdered.)

    This lead soon thereafter to what is the true modern birth of the terrorists war, during reagan's years.

    Lebanon, Lebanon --- Our embassy bombed (twice), our marines left as unarmed targets -- 241 allowed to die in a single terrorist bombing...

    Atrocities, blood, madness -- that was what reagan brought us in Lebanon. And then we slunk away...

    To refer to Carter and Clinton and infer responsibility for this tarpit that's terrorism, and not talk about bush and reagan truly provokes me.

    For the record, Clinton did more than any other President in understanding the danger terrorism represented, and in attempting to proactively interrupt it.

    The primary message that he and his administration patriotically attempted to communicate to the incoming bushies was the danger of terrorism -- and most specifically Bin Laden.

    the bushies knew better. They came into office wanting to build reagan's star wars dream, and to finish daddy's war against Sadamm.
    Last edited by BARYE; 07/22/2005 at 03:50 AM.
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  20. #280  
    from todays Washington Post:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...041100879.html


    Conflicting Stories:
    The special prosecutor investigating the Plame leak case may be considering obstruction of justice or perjury charges.

    By Dan Froomkin

    washington post
    Friday, July 22, 2005

    New reports today indicate that special prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald is zeroing in on conflicting stories officials and reporters have provided his grand jury, lending credence to the theory that he may be considering obstruction of justice or perjury charges against top White House officials...

    ... but which now could be turning into another testament to the Washington maxim that the cover-up is always worse than the crime.

    White House chief political strategist Karl Rove reportedly told the grand jury that he first learned of Valerie Plame's identity from columnist Robert Novak -- but Novak's version of the story is that Rove already knew about her when the two spoke.

    Rove didn't mention his conversation with Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper to investigators at first and then said it was primarily about welfare reform. But Cooper has testified that the topic of welfare reform didn't came up.

    Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby apparently told prosecutors he first heard about Plame from NBC's Tim Russert, but Russert has testified that he neither offered nor received information about Plame in his conversation with Libby.

    And former White House spokesman Ari Fleischer apparently told prosecutors that he never saw a classified State Department memo that disclosed Plame's identity, but another former official reportedly saw him perusing it on Air Force One...

    ...Richard Keil writes for Bloomberg news service: "Two top White House aides have given accounts to a special prosecutor about how reporters first told them the identity of a CIA agent that are at odds with what the reporters have said, according to people familiar with the case.

    "Lewis 'Scooter' Libby, Vice President **** Cheney's chief of staff, told special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald that he first learned from NBC News reporter Tim Russert of the identity of Central Intelligence Agency operative Valerie Plame, the wife of former ambassador and Bush administration critic Joseph Wilson, one person said. Russert has testified before a federal grand jury that he didn't tell Libby of Plame's identity, the person said.

    "White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove told Fitzgerald that he first le
    arned the identity of the CIA agent from syndicated columnist Robert Novak, according a person familiar with the matter. Novak, who was first to report Plame's name and connection to Wilson, has given a somewhat different version to the special prosecutor, the person said...

    "There also is a discrepancy between accounts given by Rove and Time magazine reporter Matt Cooper. The White House aide mentioned Wilson's wife -- though not by name -- in a July 11, 2003, conversation with Cooper, the reporter said. Rove, 55, says that Cooper called him to talk about welfare reform and the Wilson connection was mentioned later, in passing.

    "Cooper wrote in Time magazine last week that he told the grand jury he never discussed welfare reform with Rove in that call."
    David Johnston writes in the New York Times about how Rove and Libby, at the time of the leaks, were "working closely together on a related underlying issue: whether President Bush was correct in suggesting earlier that year that Iraq had been trying to acquire nuclear materials from Africa."...

    ..."The official title, deputy White House chief of staff, does not do him justice. At the age of 54 and without a college degree, Rove is the second or third most powerful man in the US (arguably therefore the world) depending on where you place **** Cheney...

    ...Cornwell ultimately concludes: "This tacky, third-rate leak that is starting to scar the President's second term springs from the great deception executed in his first term, luring the US into a war that 60 per cent of Americans now believe was misconceived. "That is the true scandal, which has yet to be properly explained." ...
    Last edited by BARYE; 07/22/2005 at 05:06 PM. Reason: shortened in response to NRG's observation about length
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