View Poll Results: Which one is going to jail for Treason?

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42. You may not vote on this poll
  • Karl Rove

    26 61.90%
  • "Scooter" Libby

    12 28.57%
  • John Bolton

    4 9.52%
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  1. #201  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Let's not even compare oral infidelity to the brutal butchering of two people.
    No, I agree (and at least you did not call it casual behavior for literally a standing President while in the oval office as BARYE has). But Bill did risk to potentially compromise issues of national intelligence or security (and at very least political information within his own party) by initiating oral infidelity several times over while taking calls from both foreign and domestic dignitaries with discussion of potential confidential and sensitive information and material during the act.

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...&postcount=291

    I guess the thing that gets me is blind loyalty on either side. Boy if you even mention that Bill could even have possibly made a single mistake there are those on the left that blow up in your face, praising Clinton to point of worship. And then there are those who could say nothing nice about Bill.

    Bill made a lot of mistakes....He lied under oath while holding the office of president. He use an extreme amount of his energy to stall an investigation on personal matters. He lied to the people when he stated he had no sexual relations in any way with that women. His economy was already going down 3 months before he left office.

    Bill did a lot of good things.....He was a great speaker as he was able to inspire the nation when he talked. He was able to develop strong ties with other foreign nations. He was a brilliantly skilled politician.

    I also hate it when people say that NOTHING Bush could ever do can be good because Bush did it, though if their candidate had the same or worse results in the past it was good. There are those who say NOTHING he can do is bad because Bush did it. Again blind loyalty is dangerous.

    Good Things Bush did....Initiated a real war on terror for the first time. Reduced the deficit against all predictions that it was going to rise after the tax cuts. Created a new Homeland Security Dept and has attempted to consolidate intelligence between agencies. Pulled the nation out of a recession.

    Bad things Bush did....Has virtually ignored border control issues and weaknesses, still to this day. I agree Iraq needed to be addressed, but question the timing of it vs other threats at the time. Has been weaker on building international bonds than others in the past. Why does the Bush Admin let Pakistan dictate our War on Terror Policy by letting their border patrol stop us while in hot pursuit of wanted terrorist.

    The point is....it is never healthy to never question those actions of those in power. It is never healthy to ignore those faults of those we traditionally support. Unquestionable loyalty on any side leads to playing politics over the well being of the people. I have stated this before, but I feel that this is exactly the main reason that the Dems lost in the last election. They put themselves in a position that if anything happened good for the country then it was perceived as a good thing for Bush, hence a bad thing to have happen. I think a lot people saw this as I even saw articles in MSM about it.

    I am the first to admit I am no saint, but I do believe that we need to answer to the wrongs we have done....no matter the political party card that is in our wallet or in the wallet of those who did the wrong....and also we need to be willing to praise the good things that are accomplished as well. We also need to look at all sides of the issue and not ignore reports or newly developing information just because it is not what we want to hear for our candidate that we support at that time.....no matter what the party affiliation.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/14/2005 at 03:42 PM.
  2. NRG
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       #202  
    Time Reporter Testifies About Contacts With Rove
    Bush Cautions Against Prejudging Leak Case

    By Jim VandeHei and Carol Leonnig
    Washington Post Staff Writers
    Thursday, July 14, 2005; Page A04

    The reporter with whom Karl Rove discussed a covert CIA operative testified before a grand jury yesterday, as President Bush appeared publicly with his top White House political adviser and cautioned against prejudging the federal leak investigation.

    -snip-

    A number of legal experts, some of whom are involved in the case, said evidence that has emerged publicly suggests Rove or other administration officials face potential legal threats on at least three fronts.

    The first is the unmasking of CIA official Valerie Plame, the original focus of special counsel Patrick J. Fitzgerald's probe. But legal sources say there are indications the prosecutor is looking at two other areas related to the administration's handling of his investigation. One possible legal vulnerability is perjury, if officials did not testify truthfully to a federal grand jury, and another is obstructing justice, if they tried to coordinate cover stories to obscure facts.

    Legal experts said the evidence that has emerged in recent days -- including confirmation that Rove and Cooper spoke about Plame's role at the CIA as a way of knocking down a damaging story about the administration's Iraq policy -- does not by itself necessarily indicate a crime was committed. Even so, White House officials acknowledged privately that they are concerned that the investigation will lead to an indictment of someone in the administration later this year.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...071302343.html
  3. #203  
    NY Times: New Reports Again Question Whether Iraq Sought Uranium in Niger

    FULL STORY

    WASHINGTON, July 17 Were those infamous 16 words correct after all?

    It has been a year and a half since President Bush's 2003 State of the Union address, in which he suggested in a single sentence that Iraq might have been trying to acquire uranium in Africa for its nuclear weapons program. And it has been a year since the White House and the C.I.A. acknowledged that the evidence behind that assertion was flawed, opening Mr. Bush to a torrent of criticism about the credibility and reliability of the intelligence he used to justify toppling Saddam Hussein.

    But now two new reports have reopened the question of whether Mr. Bush was indeed correct when, on Jan. 28, 2003, he told the nation and the world, "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

    One of the reports was released on Wednesday by a British commission reviewing the intelligence used by Prime Minister Tony Blair in making the case for war. The report stood by the British intelligence assessments that were the foundation for Mr. Bush's statement. Though it did not explain in any detail how or why it judged the intelligence to be sound, the report concluded that the assertions by Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair about Iraq's attempts to acquire uranium were "well founded."

    The other report came from the Senate Intelligence Committee. It generally found extensive problems with the prewar intelligence assessments about Iraq's weapons programs and in particular documented a long chain of problems in the way the intelligence agencies dealt with suspicions about Iraq's interest in acquiring uranium.

    But it also contained some information that tended to bolster the view that Iraq had tried to acquire uranium from Niger and possibly one or two other African nations. It cited a statement by a French official to the State Department in late 2002 that France, which was resisting Mr. Bush's efforts to make an urgent case for war, "believed the reporting was true that Iraq had made a procurement attempt for uranium from Niger." Neither report, however, found evidence that Iraq had actually purchased any uranium from Niger.

    The new reports also raised questions about one of the White House's chief critics over the issue, Joseph C. Wilson IV, a former ambassador sent to Niger in 2002 to investigate whether Iraq had tried to purchase uranium there. Among other things, the report pointed out that Mr. Wilson's official account to the C.I.A. noted that a former prime minister of Niger had told him that he had been approached in 1999 about meeting with an Iraqi delegation interested in "expanding commercial relations" between Niger and Iraq. The former prime minister told Mr. Wilson that he interpreted the approach to mean the Iraqis were interested in acquiring a form of uranium.

    ....................

    Referring to Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair, The Wall Street Journal's editorial page on Thursday said, "It now appears that both leaders have been far more scrupulous in discussing this and related issues than much of the media in either of their countries, which would embarrass the journalistic profession, if that were possible."

    ...................

    The reports did not affect the criminal inquiry into whether anyone at the White House violated a law that makes it a crime to disclose the name of an undercover officer.

    But Mr. Wilson has been left on the defensive by the Senate Intelligence Committee's report, which found that, contrary to what he has said, his wife, Valerie Plame, appeared to have had a role in the decision to send him to Niger.

    ..................

    There may be more revelations to come. The British and American reports contained still-classified information about Iraq's dealings with Niger. Beyond that, Patrick Fitzgerald, the federal prosecutor examining the leak of Ms. Plame's identity, is expected to announce in a matter of weeks whether he will prosecute anyone.
    ....................
    Continues HERE
    ....................
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/14/2005 at 03:36 PM.
  4. #204  
    I was listening to Stephanie Miller on the radio this morning (for some reason, I dig liberal talk radio), and she was aghast (her whole program is this way) at Rush's assertion that the "16 words" were proven to be true. Now, Hobbes posts this.

    Can we come to an agreement here?
    Were these words based upon falsified intelligence documents?
    Regardless, was the intelligence underlying them correct?

    In your responses, please avoid hyperbole and the word 'lie'.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  5. #205  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    I was listening to Stephanie Miller on the radio this morning (for some reason, I dig liberal talk radio), and she was aghast (her whole program is this way) at Rush's assertion that the "16 words" were proven to be true. Now, Hobbes posts this.

    Can we come to an agreement here?
    Were these words based upon falsified intelligence documents?
    Regardless, was the intelligence underlying them correct?

    In your responses, please avoid hyperbole and the word 'lie'.
    You rule at the end makes it difficult JK

    In the article that 1911 posted in the Wilson thread, it said the following about the bipartisan Senate intelligence committee report which came out the other day.
    Yesterday's report said that whether Iraq sought to buy lightly enriched "yellowcake" uranium from Niger is one of the few bits of prewar intelligence that remains an open question. Much of the rest of the intelligence suggesting a buildup of weapons of mass destruction was unfounded, the report said.
    I take that to mean that its still unclear if Sadaam did or did not try to buy yellowcake uranium. I don't think its clear that the intelligence was falsified and I dont think its clear that the intelligence used when Pres Bush made the statement was true.

    Will we ever know? (as in 100%?) Probably not. To claim it (based on what has been presented so far) seems to be a stretch.

    However, to answer a question you didnt ask, I do think the intelligence that was used to justify going to war has still not been proved (hence I underlined the last part of the quote from the article. )
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  6. #206  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal

    No, I agree (and at least you did not call it casual behavior for literally a standing President while in the oval office as BARYE has).

    But Bill did risk to potentially compromise issues of national intelligence or security (and at very least political information within his own party) by initiating oral infidelity several times over while taking calls from both foreign and domestic dignitaries with discussion of potential ...
    Hobbes Hobbes Hobbes -- lets not distort the truth !

    Bill was SITTING -- yes SITTING -- while talking on the phone and receiving personal ministrations by the WH intern.

    Has anyone documented whether the special services availed to The Presidential Wang compromised his presidential performance ??

    Rather what this story illustrates is Bill's monumental intellectual and physical capabilities -- demonstrating a level of super human multitasking that republicans everywhere were envious of.

    (BTW -- what damaged Bill and limited the scope of his achievements was the Inquisition that persecuted him and his wife from the moment they moved to 1600 Pa. Av. NW)
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  7. NRG
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       #207  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    NY Times: New Reports Again Question Whether Iraq Sought Uranium in Niger

    WASHINGTON, July 17 Were those infamous 16 words correct after all?

    It has been a year and a half since President Bush's 2003 State of the Union address, in which he suggested in a single sentence that Iraq might have been trying to acquire uranium in Africa for its nuclear weapons program. And it has been a year since the White House and the C.I.A. acknowledged that the evidence behind that assertion was flawed, opening Mr. Bush to a torrent of criticism about the credibility and reliability of the intelligence he used to justify toppling Saddam Hussein.

    But now two new reports have reopened the question of whether Mr. Bush was indeed correct when, on Jan. 28, 2003, he told the nation and the world, "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

    One of the reports was released on Wednesday by a British commission reviewing the intelligence used by Prime Minister Tony Blair in making the case for war. The report stood by the British intelligence assessments that were the foundation for Mr. Bush's statement. Though it did not explain in any detail how or why it judged the intelligence to be sound, the report concluded that the assertions by Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair about Iraq's attempts to acquire uranium were "well founded."

    The other report came from the Senate Intelligence Committee. It generally found extensive problems with the prewar intelligence assessments about Iraq's weapons programs and in particular documented a long chain of problems in the way the intelligence agencies dealt with suspicions about Iraq's interest in acquiring uranium.

    But it also contained some information that tended to bolster the view that Iraq had tried to acquire uranium from Niger and possibly one or two other African nations. It cited a statement by a French official to the State Department in late 2002 that France, which was resisting Mr. Bush's efforts to make an urgent case for war, "believed the reporting was true that Iraq had made a procurement attempt for uranium from Niger." Neither report, however, found evidence that Iraq had actually purchased any uranium from Niger.

    The new reports also raised questions about one of the White House's chief critics over the issue, Joseph C. Wilson IV, a former ambassador sent to Niger in 2002 to investigate whether Iraq had tried to purchase uranium there. Among other things, the report pointed out that Mr. Wilson's official account to the C.I.A. noted that a former prime minister of Niger had told him that he had been approached in 1999 about meeting with an Iraqi delegation interested in "expanding commercial relations" between Niger and Iraq. The former prime minister told Mr. Wilson that he interpreted the approach to mean the Iraqis were interested in acquiring a form of uranium.

    ....................

    Referring to Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair, The Wall Street Journal's editorial page on Thursday said, "It now appears that both leaders have been far more scrupulous in discussing this and related issues than much of the media in either of their countries, which would embarrass the journalistic profession, if that were possible."

    ...................

    The reports did not affect the criminal inquiry into whether anyone at the White House violated a law that makes it a crime to disclose the name of an undercover officer.

    But Mr. Wilson has been left on the defensive by the Senate Intelligence Committee's report, which found that, contrary to what he has said, his wife, Valerie Plame, appeared to have had a role in the decision to send him to Niger.

    ..................

    There may be more revelations to come. The British and American reports contained still-classified information about Iraq's dealings with Niger. Beyond that, Patrick Fitzgerald, the federal prosecutor examining the leak of Ms. Plame's identity, is expected to announce in a matter of weeks whether he will prosecute anyone.
    ....................
    Continues HERE
    FULL STORY
    This is a red herring! Let's address who leaked info about a covert agent.
  8. #208  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    This is a red herring! Let's address who leaked info about a covert agent.
    Who's the covert agent??
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  9. #209  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Who's the covert agent??
    Are you saying the Valerie Plame wasnt a covert CIA agent? (Im not sure what you are saying?)
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  10. #210  
    It was my understanding that she hadnt been "under cover" in over 5 years.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  11. #211  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    It was my understanding that she hadnt been "under cover" in over 5 years.
    Oh, that may be true. I just interpreted covert to be that she was in the CIA as an operative and it wasnt public knowledge. If thats the case, then I can understand, from a policy standpoint, why we wouldnt want that info out in the open.
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  12. #212  
    I think this may settle the whole debate over whether Valerie Plame was a covert agent or not when her name came out once and for all:

    "Wolf Blitzer: But the other argument that's been made against you is that you've sought to capitalize on this extravaganza, having that photo shoot with your wife, who was a clandestine officer of the CIA, and that you've tried to enrich yourself writing this book and all of that.
    What do you make of those accusations, which are serious accusations, as you know, that have been leveled against you.

    Joe Wilson: My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity."


    Enuff Said!
    Check the Transcripts
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  13. #213  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Joe Wilson: My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity."

    Enuff Said!
    Check the Transcripts
    I dont want to nit pick (I swear ) but the real issue isnt whether she was or was not a clandestine officer on the day that Bob Novak revealed her identity BUT was she a clandestine operative when Rove 'allegedly' revealed her identity to the reporter.

    Thats really whats at issue here. Once she was allegedly outed by Rove or whomever, then shes 'out' and it doesnt really matter what Wilson did.
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  14. NRG
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       #214  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    It was my understanding that she hadnt been "under cover" in over 5 years.
    The CIA believed so, why else would they ask to have it investigated? Remeber it is the CIA who asked for this to be looked into, not Joe Wilson, not Valarie Plame, and not the Democrats. Squirm, throw mud, kick and scream, it is not going to change the fact that the CIA complained about it.
  15. #215  
    Robert Novak actually did contact the CIA before the column went live and going by what he was told, it sounds like Plame was an ex-covert agent who was working as an analyst:"At the CIA, the official designated to talk to me denied that Wilson's wife had inspired his selection but said she was delegated to request his help. He asked me not to use her name, saying she probably never again will be given a foreign assignment but that exposure of her name might cause "difficulties" if she travels abroad. He never suggested to me that Wilson's wife or anybody else would be endangered. If he had, I would not have used her name. I used it in the sixth paragraph of my column because it looked like the missing explanation of an otherwise incredible choice by the CIA for its mission.

    ...A big question is her duties at Langley. I regret that I referred to her in my column as an "operative," a word I have lavished on hack politicians for more than 40 years. While the CIA refuses to publicly define her status, the official contact says she is "covered" -- working under the guise of another agency. However, an unofficial source at the Agency says she has been an analyst, not in covert operations."





    It certainly didn't look like she was worried about being "outed" while she posed for Vanity Fair January 2004:
    Last edited by clairegrrl; 07/14/2005 at 11:44 PM.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  16. #216  
    Sandy Berger Blew Plame's Cover

    WASHINGTON, DC --- Investigators revealed today that it was not Karl Rove who initially disclosed the super duper double secret identity of CIA Agent Valerie Plame. They now have clear evidence that Sandy Berger had Plame's identity disclosed on one of the documents he smuggled out of the secure library in his underpants.


    "A reporter turned over notes that indicate Sandy Berger had the documentation in his underpants and that Rove's inadvertent mention of Joe Wilson's wife only corroborated what they already knew," said an investigator on the case. "The document was crumpled and stained, but it clearly reveals Plame as a highly sensitive super duper undercover CIA operative. I'm not sure how the agency will operate now that she has been outed. I think it's fair to say that Sandy Berger needs to come clean on what else was contained in his underpants and socks that he smuggled out."


    "This was a huge loss for the agency," said a top secret CIA agent who is the brother of Larry Odlid of Humble, Texas, on Mayberry Lane. "I'm not sure how we'll find someone to replace Plame. Her proofreading, photocopying, and suspect torturing skills were unmatched in the agency."

    Story
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  17. NRG
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       #217  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Sandy Berger Blew Plame's Cover

    WASHINGTON, DC --- Investigators revealed today that it was not Karl Rove who initially disclosed the super duper double secret identity of CIA Agent Valerie Plame. They now have clear evidence that Sandy Berger had Plame's identity disclosed on one of the documents he smuggled out of the secure library in his underpants.


    "A reporter turned over notes that indicate Sandy Berger had the documentation in his underpants and that Rove's inadvertent mention of Joe Wilson's wife only corroborated what they already knew," said an investigator on the case. "The document was crumpled and stained, but it clearly reveals Plame as a highly sensitive super duper undercover CIA operative. I'm not sure how the agency will operate now that she has been outed. I think it's fair to say that Sandy Berger needs to come clean on what else was contained in his underpants and socks that he smuggled out."


    "This was a huge loss for the agency," said a top secret CIA agent who is the brother of Larry Odlid of Humble, Texas, on Mayberry Lane. "I'm not sure how we'll find someone to replace Plame. Her proofreading, photocopying, and suspect torturing skills were unmatched in the agency."

    Story
    Uhhh, there is no source for this fellows claims. A spoof website?
  18. #218  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Uhhh, there is no source for this fellows claims. A spoof website?
    That site gets you guys everytime
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  19. #219  
    I C the honeymoon is over
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  20. NRG
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       #220  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I C the honeymoon is over
    Yep. Damn flight back to the states sucked!! We had like 8 hours worth of layovers in one direction.
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