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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Actually I am a law student (at least starting in the Fall) and I have a sociology minor and my coursework done for my MPA.
    I knew it!

    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    LOL-I am on the side that makes the BEST argument. (This implies that I am not as political as others have been led to believe.) Advocacy...I love it.
    Ok, I'll bite....what do you think about the argument the LTC makes (please refer to the link posted by Claire)?
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Maybe, I mean if it meant that 27 months later and 10's of billions of dollars and 2000 American lives and 10's of thousands of innocent civilian lives could have been saved. I just dont see it as being so black and white. I totally agree that Saddam was horrible and getting rid of him on its own is not a bad idea but...weigh that against all that has happened...I not so sure.
    Here are some of my thoughts on the threat Saddam had against the US:

    How Saddam Was Lying About His Lies And What Information We Knew (or thought we knew) At The Time We Made The Decision.

    Saddam Linked to Terrorist WMD Planned Attacks (article linked in post)

    Latest Findings in Oil For Food Showing How Saddam Attempted to Turn France & Russia
    (article linked in post)
  3. NRG
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       #103  
    Iraq: 8,000 killed in 6 months

    Thursday, June 30, 2005; Posted: 12:35 p.m. EDT (16:35 GMT)

    BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Insurgent attacks in the last six months have killed more than 8,000 Iraqi civilians, police and troops, according to Iraq's interior minister.

    Meanwhile Thursday, a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad said the Iraqi insurgency had probably reached its "high water mark" over the past 12 months.

    In an interview with CNN, Iraqi Interior Minister Baqir Jabbur said "terrorists" had killed 8,175 people and wounded another 12,000 since January 2005.

    According to the U.S. Department of Defense, there have been 307 U.S. fatalities in combat during the same period.

    -snip-

    http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/...ion=cnn_latest
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    Have they? They've been there the whole time. Remember when US Forces first rolled into Iraq and the people pretty much gave up and ran away. Sure we got a good number of them in prisons all over the place, but both liberals and conservatives could agree that we didn't get them all.
    It doesnt appear to be true (at least over the last 6 months): link
    Yet last week, testifying before the Senate Armed Services Committee, General Abizaid said that, actually, the insurgency has not grown weaker over the last six months and that the number of foreign terrorists infiltrating Iraq has increased.
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    A large percent of terrorists happen to reside in the Middle East due to their continued dictatorships there and lack of education etc. Forcing democracy on them is the only way to effective purge the area of terrorism so they can be educated and realize politics is not worth dying for.
    I agree that this is one direction...but it assumes that you can force it on them (some would argue that they would rather fight for their 'definition' of democracy, which probably isnt ours, or die.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    Because if you aren't against terrorism then you are for it. This is something we need to work together on and the presidents that follow Bush need to continue this fight, conservative or liberal.
    I can agree with part of this because I do think its important from a policy standpoint to continue the fight (my problem though is when we frame something as either/or. When we do, it seems to get used as a means of stifling criticism about our goals/policies) For instance, everyone for the most part, agrees that we dont want terrorism, but disagree on how we should combat it. Either/or arguments dont leave very much room for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    Hmmm, if there is so many people 'against' Bush here and 'against' Blair in the UK, one would think they would have been voted out of office in both elections that happened within months of each other.
    I cant speak for PM Blair because I dont understand the foreign politics as much...but to advocate against your position on Pres. Bush, first he was technically appointed by the S.Ct. in the first election and in the second election (where he was the incumbent so he should have won easily, he only garnered only 51% of the popular vote). Thats hardly convincing evidence that he has a mandate or that there wasnt a lot of support for a change. (BTW I actually support Pres Bush on some issues and personally like him.)
    link

    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    It's only taken 12 years because Clinton was too busy 'screwing' around.
    Its very arguable that Pres Clinton did not take the terrorist concerns as seriously as needed...I see your point there.

    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    President Bush has stated and restated, but nobody seems to understand. This war is not going to end overnight. It will end when terrorism has been removed from the planet.
    Thats my concern...there is a big difference in saying "The war wont end overnight" and "The war might never end." If the definition of defeating terrorism is that it has to be 'removed from the planet' as you say...it may never get finished (and we may never be able to foot the bill.) Thats my concern on the war on terrorism...we don't seem to have realistic goals...without them, it will be difficult to measure our success.
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  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Surely being in the military has taught you that you cannot put a time line on such things? Is it not more a matter of completing the mission then choosing a date?
    Granted, my experience was as an enlisted man going from the ranks of E-1 through E-4...

    ...that being said, whenever we did plan and train...we always did so with clear objectives and estimates of how long we expected something to take in order to accomplish the mission. (Essentially by breaking down each step into a manageable objective). You cant realistically go into a conflict like this and be irresponsible by NOT considering how long something will take to complete.

    I can guarantee you that they have had to estimate how long things take...why? Because you have to take into consideration things like:

    1. troop rotation
    2. EAS of existing servicemen
    3. supplies
    4. other contingencies (like enemy reinforcements)
    5. training of the Iraqi security forces
    6. (Im sure the list could go on).

    I think the reason why this has not come out (how long this might take) is because THAT would be an awful hard sell to the American people. I already posted this link but in the article they talk about how hard it is to be 'honest' with civilian leaders because of the pressure to win military excursions.

    (And for all those keeping score.. ..this argument of withholding info or not being forthcoming by military leaders to civilians on how long something would take to accomplish actually helps Pres. Bush and the position he is in by having to 'sell' it to the American people.)
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  6. #106  
    Keep it coming!

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050630/...nts_muslims_dc

    "Foreign ministers of Muslim countries on Thursday pledged cooperation with Iraqi authorities to help end a bloody insurgency waged there by Iraqis and foreign Arabs.

    Ministers of member states of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) meeting in Yemen agreed to help "rebuild Iraq and enabling the Iraqi government to maintain security and stability," Yemeni Foreign Minister Abubakr al-Qirbi told reporters.

    Iraq's Foreign Minister Hoshiyar Zebari said on Wednesday he held informal talks in Sanaa with officials from neighboring states about foreigners coming to fight in Iraq."
  7. NRG
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       #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Keep it coming!

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050630/...nts_muslims_dc

    "Foreign ministers of Muslim countries on Thursday pledged cooperation with Iraqi authorities to help end a bloody insurgency waged there by Iraqis and foreign Arabs.

    Ministers of member states of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) meeting in Yemen agreed to help "rebuild Iraq and enabling the Iraqi government to maintain security and stability," Yemeni Foreign Minister Abubakr al-Qirbi told reporters.

    Iraq's Foreign Minister Hoshiyar Zebari said on Wednesday he held informal talks in Sanaa with officials from neighboring states about foreigners coming to fight in Iraq."
    This goes with this article:

    ________________________________________________________________
    Iraq calls on Islamic states for support; 12 more die in Iraq

    BAGHDAD (AFP) - Iraq's foreign minister called on Islamic nations to support Baghdad in the fight against insurgents, who killed at least a dozen more people, as President George W. Bush pledged US troops would stay on in Iraq.

    And the Iraqi court tasked with trying ousted leader Saddam Hussein and his aides on Wednesday released recent video footage of associates of the former dictator being interrogated.

    At least 12 Iraqis died and 19 were wounded Wednesday, including four who were killed when mortar rounds slammed into their homes in the northwestern town of Tal Afar while they slept.

    But a Turkish businessman held by militants in Iraq since January was freed, a senior Turkish diplomat said.

    -snip-

    http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...q_050630064605
    _________________________________________________________________

    Your article is good news in my opinion. I would like to see NATO and the UN get involved as well. But, this is a start.
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    This goes with this article:

    ________________________________________________________________
    Iraq calls on Islamic states for support; 12 more die in Iraq

    BAGHDAD (AFP) - Iraq's foreign minister called on Islamic nations to support Baghdad in the fight against insurgents, who killed at least a dozen more people, as President George W. Bush pledged US troops would stay on in Iraq.

    And the Iraqi court tasked with trying ousted leader Saddam Hussein and his aides on Wednesday released recent video footage of associates of the former dictator being interrogated.

    At least 12 Iraqis died and 19 were wounded Wednesday, including four who were killed when mortar rounds slammed into their homes in the northwestern town of Tal Afar while they slept.

    But a Turkish businessman held by militants in Iraq since January was freed, a senior Turkish diplomat said.

    -snip-

    http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...q_050630064605
    _________________________________________________________________

    Your article is good news in my opinion. I would like to see NATO and the UN get involved as well. But, this is a start.
    Just can't stand to let good news stand on it's own can you
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    Ok, I'll bite....what do you think about the argument the LTC makes (please refer to the link posted by Claire)?
    I think he made some really good points. (and just to advocate...he appears to assume throughout the piece that the American readers believe everything that is fed to them...while most arguably do, its not representative of all.)

    I think it just goes back to the thread about why the MSM is biased.

    I would also add that the media's first priority is to sell papers when its first priority should be to print the truth in an objective way.
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  10. NRG
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       #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Just can't stand to let good news stand on it's own can you
    I thought this was a supporting article for yours? They kinda wrapped up 4 articles in 1. The piece I was more interested in was, them asking for support.
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I thought this was a supporting article for yours? They kinda wrapped up 4 articles in 1. The piece I was more interested in was, them asking for support.
    Got it, I took it as a yeah, there's good news but more people were killed....my apologies.
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       #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Got it, I took it as a yeah, there's good news but more people were killed....my apologies.
    I added a smiley.
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    "Every day we see another distorted and grossly exaggerated story from a major news organization about the "failures" in the war in Iraq. Print and video journalists are covering only a small fraction of the events in Iraq and more often than not, the events they cover are only the bad ones. Many of the journalists making public assessments about the progress of the war in Iraq are unqualified to do so, given their training and experience. The inaccurate picture they paint has distorted the world view of the daily realities in Iraq. Through their incomplete, uninformed and unbalanced reporting, many members of the media covering the war in Iraq are just aiding the enemy."

    damn liberal media !

    everyday they report on the 2 or 3 cars that've blown up in Iraq.

    I never see no report on the thousands and thousands of cars that did'nt !!
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  14. #114  
    How deep the Iranian involvement in Iraqi fighting?
    The situation in Iraq is getting worse by the day. It is time to ask questions, says Hichem Karoui.


    The main concern here is the fact nobody ignore about the ties some of these militias keep with Iran, since the time Iraqi Shiite political and religious leadership has taken refuge in Iran prior to Saddam’s downfall. But this is not all the story. Iran still keeps close ties with key political parties, including the Shiite-based United Iraqi Alliance (UIA) that emerged as Iraq’s most important political coalition in the January 2005 elections: SCIRI, al Da’wa and al Da'wa-Tanzim al Iraq.
    http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=13876

    Interesting prespective....especially coming from a Middle East source.
  15. #115  
    Rethinking Iran
    Washington Post

    He is also conspicuously less interested than was Mr. Rafsanjani in pursuing better relations with Western investors and governments, including the United States. He is outspoken in his support for Iran's nuclear program, and he could promote more aggressive Iranian sponsorship of terrorist activity against Israel or U.S. forces in Iraq.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...062701418.html
  16. #116  
    Like the humor! Get your point, but sounds like you don't get the point of the soldier. The military kills hundreds of insurgents and instead of the media reporting it, they report "another car bomb kills 2 Iraqi's".

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    damn liberal media !

    everyday they report on the 2 or 3 cars that've blown up in Iraq.

    I never see no report on the thousands and thousands of cars that did'nt !!
  17. #117  
    Okay....I know this is slightly off topic....but I heard many far left nay sayers after 14 days in Afghan....and here is a positive story of it's progress....though this was a on a much smaller scale, maybe a lesson of positive for Iraq. Either way it is a positive story on the war on terror:

    Afghan Girls Go to School — Slowly, Surely
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160706,00.html
  18. #118  
    Iraq Insurgent Roundup Nets 100 Suspects

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,161494,00.html

    In the Iraqi capital, about 600 Iraqi and 250 U.S. troops took part in Operation Muthana Strike (search), which started early Monday and targeted alleged insurgents safe houses in neighborhoods near the Baghdad International Airport, the military said in a statement.

    Among the arrested insurgent were captured Egyptian suspects, the military said.

    The raid, which the military said was based on tips from local residents, was designed to detain suspects, seize illegal weapons and gain intelligence to disrupt future attacks.

    "The success of the Iraqi army demonstrates their level of training and high commitment to rid Iraq of terrorists," said U.S. Col. Kenneth Roberts in the statement. "I am proud of our Iraqi counterparts."
    President Bush said the insurgents in Iraq will not stop democracy in that country and U.S. forces will stay "until the fight is won." He was speaking at the West Virginian University. "Terrorists can kill the innocent but they cannot stop the advance of freedom," he said.

    U.S. troops, meanwhile, marked Independence Day with barbecues, horseshoes, volleyball and — for those who had access — dips in a pool. At Al Asad Air Base (search) in western Anbar province, a special "pig pickin'" dinner was served, but the full pig was cooked in a kitchen instead of being roasted on a spit.
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       #119  
    NEWS RELEASE
    HEADQUARTERS UNITED STATES CENTRAL COMMAND
    7115 South Boundary Boulevard
    MacDill AFB, Fla. 33621-5101
    Phone: (813) 827-5894; FAX: (813) 827-2211; DSN 651-5894

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    July 5, 2005
    Release Number: 05-07-03C


    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE


    ONE TASK FORCE LIBERTY SOLDIER KILLED, TWO WOUNDED BY IED

    TIKRIT, Iraq – One Task Force Liberty Soldier was killed and two were wounded by an improvised explosive device at about 1:05 p.m. July 5 in southern Diyala Province. The two wounded Soldiers were taken to a Coalition Forces medical treatment facility.

    The name of the deceased is being withheld pending notification of next of kin.

    Release provided by the 42ND Infantry Division Public Affairs Office. For more information, please contact 42 ID PAO at fortysecond.id.pao@us.army.mil

    http://www.centcom.mil/CENTCOMNews/C...t=20050703.txt
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       #120  
    NEWS RELEASE
    HEADQUARTERS UNITED STATES CENTRAL COMMAND
    7115 South Boundary Boulevard
    MacDill AFB, Fla. 33621-5101
    Phone: (813) 827-5894; FAX: (813) 827-2211; DSN 651-5894

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    July 8, 2005
    Release Number: 05-07-04C


    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE


    SOLDIER KILLED BY IED NEAR BALAD

    LSA ANACONDA, BALAD, Iraq – A 29th Brigade Combat Team Soldier was killed and three were wounded when an improvised explosive device detonated near their vehicle at about 1:00 p.m. July 8 near Balad, Iraq.

    The three wounded Soldiers were taken to a Coalition Forces medical treatment facility.

    The name of the Soldier is being withheld pending next of kin notification.

    For more information, please contact the 29th BCT PAO, CPT Yonemura: kyle.yonemura@us.army.mil

    http://www.centcom.mil/CENTCOMNews/C...t=20050704.txt

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