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  1. #221  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    No. Bush admin fawked up.
    see what I mean....
    (Talk about 'circular argument')
    more wining, more complaining, no solutions.

    You had the chance to vote him out of office and failed. (But wait, that's a whole other conspiracy argument.)
  2. #222  
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    This reply is to Barye, daThomas, and Clulup..........thanks for your feedback.
    Thanks for ignoring me. (DA gets all the attention...Im bleaching my hair next )
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    It is a wonderful thing that you were not here in the forties...or we would be speaking in German right now.
    I know this has already been touched on by others but what are you saying? That because people voice their concerns over foreign policy that if we did it during the 40's that Hitler would have won WWII? (Honest question...not flaming).
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    Warfare has changed.....apparently you three (among some others that are in the minority in our country) don't seem to recognize this...and are free to tell others because you are free.
    Warfare has changed...in many ways its less conventional because our 'enemies' are typically smaller in number requiring us to change our tactics to be successful.
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    All the authorities who predict and theorize and give unduly blame in various places, can also predict a 70% chance of a nuclear weapon being used in this country within the next ten years.
    I sure hope its not that high but I agree that it is legitimate and deadly concern that should be given more of a priority. My argument is that fighting terrorism in Iraq appears to divide more of our attention there and not on controlling access to this country and limiting the money we could spend on intelligence to prevent certain people (or groups) from getting WMD.
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    I am certain that you would like to blame Bush for this as well,,,,,,if you had any sense you would know that OBL has been attempting to attain WMD for at least 15 years or more, long before Bush was president
    I only hold Pres. Bush responsible for the decisions he makes. Clearly, he has made some and its perfectly responsible and important that we critique those decisions so that we 1) understand why, 2) prevent this country from making the same mistake later on down the road. (I think you could agree with that right?)
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    and during the Clinton years when nothing was done about the buildup of terrorists and terrorism against this country.
    Do you really mean 'nothing' was done or just that there wasnt enough done (now that we know in hindsight? Because I agree we could have done more.)
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    Notice that normally, you don't hear conservatives pointing fingers at Clinton when it is just as easy to do so as you pointing them at Bush.. The bottom line is, when this nuclear device goes off, lets hope that you folks are spared so you can try to be kind to these people and ask them to stop it. Surely this will work.
    the Baer
    Since you want to focus on the scare tactic, then let me ask you this...how is what we are doing in Iraq with car bombers and IED's going to make a dent at all against a terrorist from coming into this country with a low yield tactical weapon in a backpack and detonating it in downtown Manhattan? (Couldnt you agree that if the threat you described is important and quite deadly, that we could be doing a better job at preventing it by spending our human lives and resources in other ways?)
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  3. #223  
    Quote Originally Posted by hofo_mofo
    here is my precis version of the war in Iraq

    Good: It's Iraq
    Bad: It's Iraq

    done
    LOL...if only it were that simple.
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  4. #224  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    see what I mean....
    (Talk about 'circular argument')
    more wining, more complaining, no solutions.

    You had the chance to vote him out of office and failed. (But wait, that's a whole other conspiracy argument.)
    Yea, I gave you as much of a response as your post deserved.
  5. #225  
    It looks like you're new around here.

    thebaer, meet t2gungho
  6. #226  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Yea, I gave you as much of a response as your post deserved.
    Thank you.
    I expected less, and got more of a response from you.
  7. #227  
    Hello Ekuzco
    I thought MOVE ON was because they were all leaving one way if Bush won again. You mean they are still here?
    daThomas.....take a advil and save your liberal crap for another liberal to cry with
    You will not change my thoughts any more than I will change yours. If I had wanted to even start to change yours, I would have gone about it from a totally different direction........see directions from EIB network on how to work on changing a libs mind.
    In the mean time, Ekuzco is right....time for you to MOVE ON.....
    the baer
    the Baer
  8. #228  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    Dems/Libs/Bush-haters all have the same line of attack when it comes to Iraq:

    "Oh, why did we go there?"
    "Oh, they lied to us"
    "It's all a big conspiracy"


    Wine, complain, wine, complain.

    This thread hasn't changed for months.

    It's about time you moveon.org followers practice what you preach and ...

    MOVE ON!!!
    Hmm...I noticed you said Dems/Libs/Bush-haters...so if you arent in those groups than you shouldn't have any criticism of our foreign policy? Do you think (honest question) that all Conservatives/Republicans/Bush-lovers all agree with what we are doing in Iraq (and abroad)?

    I guess I don't see the harm in voicing a different viewpoint (we cant all agree on everything.) And besides...how can we MOVE ON as you put it when things havent changed...we are still in Iraq, our men are still dying, Iraqi's are still dying, and even by the best estimates...we will be there for 2-3 more years?
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  9. #229  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    Thank you.
    I expected less, and got more of a response from you.
    That's a good approach for you, given.

  10. #230  
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    Hello Ekuzco
    I thought MOVE ON was because they were all leaving one way if Bush won again. You mean they are still here?
    daThomas.....take a advil and save your liberal crap for another liberal to cry with
    You will not change my thoughts any more than I will change yours. If I had wanted to even start to change yours, I would have gone about it from a totally different direction........see directions from EIB network on how to work on changing a libs mind.
    In the mean time, Ekuzco is right....time for you to MOVE ON.....
    the baer
    I don't want you to change your thoughts. I just want you to research them.
  11. #231  
    t2gungho
    1) saying that if everyone just stood by while Hitler did his thing....he might have succeeded. If you have not heard this comparison or scenario before, you may have had your head underground....(not flaming..just stating)
    2)on two of your points...I totally agree with spending more and paying more attention to our borders.....and internal Al Quida problems.......which I believe they are doing daily....they don't advertise the investigations of groups here in the U.S. until they bust them....I think it might tip them off....
    3)all Presidents are responsible for their decisions.......no wartime is predictable..if it were, they would all be over in just a few days or less.....mistakes will be made no doubt....but I am not going to rant on about how ABL was in the hands of our country durung Clinton's term and let go.......and how only a couple of missiles were fired to make everyone pacified when the Cole was hit....give me a break....surely you don't think Clinton did all he should have or could have.......he was too occupied using cigars in the White house on Monica and setting new sexual guidelines for our youth.
    4)The only thing I read in your whole email that made the most sense to me was the last line.........by Reagan.
    didn't mean to ignore you
    thanks
    the Baer
    the Baer
  12. #232  
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    1) saying that if everyone just stood by while Hitler did his thing....he might have succeeded. If you have not heard this comparison or scenario before, you may have had your head underground....(not flaming..just stating)
    There is absolutely no comparison between pre-invasion Iraq and 40's Germany. If you think you can make one, please try.


    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    2)on two of your points...I totally agree with spending more and paying more attention to our borders.....and internal Al Quida problems.......which I believe they are doing daily....they don't advertise the investigations of groups here in the U.S. until they bust them....I think it might tip them off....
    Yes, this type of approach would be better than invading countries which had nothing to do with 9-11 however I and most others DID SUPPORT invading Afghanistan to take out the Taliban and Al Queda. Iraq has distracted from this goal.
  13. #233  
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    t2gungho
    1) saying that if everyone just stood by while Hitler did his thing....he might have succeeded. If you have not heard this comparison or scenario before, you may have had your head underground....(not flaming..just stating)
    Ok, I didnt understand your analogy. But now that I do, lets address it. No one (not even DA ) is saying that we should just stand by and do nothing when it comes to terrorism/WMD/Al Queda (if you or anyone else believes that, please post a link to what they said because I havent seen it). Where most disagree is on the what we do, how we do it and for how long. That is not the same thing as 'standing by' while in our case, AQ crashes planes into our buildings and kills thousands of people.
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    3)all Presidents are responsible for their decisions.......no wartime is predictable..if it were, they would all be over in just a few days or less.....mistakes will be made no doubt....
    First, since we both agree that they should be responsible..then do you agree that Pres. Bush has made the right decision in every aspect of this war on terrorism? (For example, invading Iraq for...?, pulling troops away from Afghanistan while in pursuit of OBL, 2 years later and we still dont have enough Iraqi police/military people trained, etc.) I only ask because we both agreed and I have not seen Pres. Bush say that he made a mistake or could have made a better move. Second, I agree that no wartime is 100% predictable but even if it was, that does not mean that it would automatically be over in days. For example, a war hypothetically could have gone along as predicted but it physically and logistically could take a year to complete.
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    he was too occupied using cigars in the White house on Monica and setting new sexual guidelines for our youth.
    I am actually not a Clinton-lover but do you really think the President of the U.S. sets the sexual guidelines for our youth? Polls have been done to show that our youth (for the most part) don't care about politics and cant even tell you who prominent people are in our government. I doubt that they pay that much attention to what Pres. does...but I guess its arguable.
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    4)The only thing I read in your whole email that made the most sense to me was the last line.........by Reagan.
    Out of all that I wrote, my signature was the only thing that made sense? (Not the same as agreeing with it but merely you understood my point of view.)
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  14. NRG
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       #234  
    HOLY CRAP!!! What happened to my thread?
  15. #235  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    HOLY CRAP!!! What happened to my thread?
    You just had to go off to work....and left no one behind to be in charge of your own thread????? It's all your fault, I tell ya!
  16. #236  
    For me the bottom line is that yes Iraq needed to be taken care of sooner or later (the question is more of the timing and who maybe should have gone after first). No matter what your personal opinion there have been a lot of bad out of the situation, and undeniably a lot of good has come out and will come out of this situation.

    No matter what side of the fence you are on, it looks like the closing of this chapter is on it's way.

    Iraqi PM seeks speedy withdrawal of U.S. troops

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...q_x.htm?csp=15

    BAGHDAD (AP) — Iraq's transitional prime minister called Wednesday for a speedy withdrawal of U.S. troops and the top U.S. commander here said he believed a "fairly substantial" pullout could begin next spring and summer.

    Talking of troop pullout times, Iraq Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari welcomed Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
    By Joe Raedle, Getty Images

    Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari said at a joint news conference with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld that the time has arrived to plan a coordinated transition from American to Iraqi military control throughout the country.

    Asked how soon a U.S. withdrawal should happen, he said no exact timetable had been set. "But we confirm and we desire speed in that regard," he said, speaking through a translator. "And this fast pace has two aspects."

    First, there must be a quickening of the pace of U.S. training of Iraqi security forces, and second there must be closely coordinated planning between the U.S.-led military coalition and the emerging Iraq government on a security transition, he said.
  17. #237  
    Quote Originally Posted by thebaer
    This reply is to Barye, daThomas, and Clulup..........thanks for your feedback. .... All the authorities who predict and theorize and give unduly blame in various places, can also predict a 70% chance of a nuclear weapon being used in this country within the next ten years.
    That's a serious problem, but a problem that never had anything to do with pre-war Iraq. In case you forgot, the famous 16 words about Iraq trying to get Uranium from Niger turned out to be total bogus. Iraq was never really close to nuclear bombs - in contrast to Pakistan, who actually have them, as well as the former USSR countries, and Iran and North Korea being pretty close. But NOT Iraq, please learn to accept this undisputed fact.
    I am certain that you would like to blame Bush for this as well,,,,,,if you had any sense you would know that OBL has been attempting to attain WMD for at least 15 years or more,
    Yeah, sure, so why don't you go after OBL properly? He may die of old age because of the Iraq diversion.
    The bottom line is, when this nuclear device goes off, lets hope that you folks are spared so you can try to be kind to these people and ask them to stop it.
    Let's all hope it will never go off, neither a real bomb nor a "dirty" one. Fact is: the war in Iraq was, is, and will continue to be, a grave error in the war on terror. Read the CIA quote above: Iraq has become the main terrorist training ground and the main force behing recruiting of new Islamistic terrorists. What could have been more stupid in the war against terror than this? Iraq was contained. There were no WMD there at the time, Iraq played no significant role in Islamistic terror THEN, but it does NOW. Congrats, Bush, brilliant strategy.
    Last edited by clulup; 07/28/2005 at 02:13 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  18. #238  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    HOLY CRAP!!! What happened to my thread?
    Whats holy about it?

    You werent saying anything and as everyone knows...silence is consent.

    Ok fine...I will play by the rules. Good news:

    link

    Pentagon Says Troop Pullout From Iraq Could Begin In 2006
    07.27.2005 4:15 PM EDT

    Announcement comes as new poll shows waning confidence in war in Iraq.
    Donald Rumsfeld with the troops (file)
    Photo: Joe Raedle/Getty Images

    A "fairly substantial" pullout of U.S. troops from Iraq could begin as early as next year, the military announced Wednesday.

    U.S. Army General George Casey, the top American commander in Iraq, made the announcement during a surprise visit to the country by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Casey also said the insurgency in Iraq has not substantially increased within the past year, despite numerous suicide bombings in recent weeks.

    "The insurgents need progress to survive, and this insurgency is not progressing," Casey said.

    Casey added that if security improved and the Iraqi elections went ahead as planned at the end of the year, "We will still be able to make fairly substantial reductions [in troops] ... in the spring and summer of next year."

    A new USA Today/ Gallup poll reports only 43 percent of Americans are confident of victory and 32 percent believe the U.S. could not win the war in Iraq. The poll was also the first to show that a majority of Americans (51 percent) believe the government deliberately misled the public about WMDs.

    While a timetable has yet to be set for withdrawal, Iraq Prime Minister Ibrahim Jaafari said American troops should leave as soon as possible, but in coordination with Iraqi plans, the AP reports.
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  19. #239  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    For me the bottom line is that yes Iraq needed to be taken care of sooner or later (the question is more of the timing and who maybe should have gone after first).
    Why? Assuming you are referring to "taking care of" as MORE than owning the air over the upper and lower thirds of the nation AND a stranglehold on the economy AND weapons inspectors on the ground.

    What justifies the need to invade another nation?
  20. NRG
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       #240  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    That's a serious problem, but a problem that never had anything to do with pre-war Iraq. In case you forgot, the famous 16 words about Iraq trying to get Uranium from Niger turned out to be total bogus. Iraq was never really close to nuclear bombs - in contrast to Pakistan, who actually have them, as well as the former USSR countries, and Iran and North Korea being pretty close. But NOT Iran, please learn to accept this undisputed fact.
    Yeah, sure, so why don't you go after OBL properly? He may die of old age because of the Iraq diversion. Let's all hope it will never go off, neither a real bomb nor a "dirty" one. Fact is: the war in Iraq was, is, and will continue to be, a grave error in the war on terror. Read the CIA quote above: Iraq has become the main terrorist training ground and the main force behing recruiting of new Islamistic terrorists. What could have been more stupid in the war against terror than this? Iraq was contained. There were no WMD there at the time, Iraq played no significant role in Islamistic terror THEN, but it does NOW. Congrats, Bush, brilliant strategy.
    Clulup, the cat is back so stop playing. Good vs. Bad, not Ideology v. Ideology. Thanks

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