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  1. #161  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    He admitted to bleaching in another thread.
    Then he is from that religious order. That heretic!!
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  2. #162  
    Quote Originally Posted by pdxtreo
    Two points I've been meaning to throw down:

    I) Many T|Cers have stated that, in their opinion, the 10 c displays do not serve to endorse religion(s). That's great, but plenty of our fellow Americans feel otherwise. United we stand, right? Respect for opposing opinion seems to be in very short supply these days.
    It's called tollerance........explain to me why those that really have no issue with it should be forced to cause action becuase you believe otherwise. You're welcome to you opinion - you're just not welcome to shove it down the throats of others

    Quote Originally Posted by pdxtreo
    II) These displays are not being erected in a vacuum. The religious right is pushing their 'agenda' on several fronts. Allow me to list a few of my favorites:

    1) Stem cell research limitations
    2) Right to life part 1 - Anti-abortion movement
    3) Right to life part 2 - Living will (e.g. Terri Schiavo)
    4) Right to life part 3 - Federal trampling of states rights (e.g. Dr. assisted suicide in Oregon)
    5) Gay marriage ban
    6) Intelligent design theory/anti-evolution push in public schools
    7) Church endorsement of federal and state candidates/issues
    8) Overtly fundie United States president and high ranking federal officials
    9) Judicial witch-hunt
    10) Federally funded faith-based initiatives

    Note: I'm not listing these issues to illicit the typical pro/con debate, but to point out simply that they only serve to add more weight to the 10 c argument.
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    And how is this different from the other side of these issues?? Surely you see if the liberals were in power the roles would be completely reversed? - in reality, it's business as usual, those with the power make the rules.

    Both of your posed questions just tell me you have little tollerance for the beliefs of others when they are no congruent with yours.
  3. #163  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    It's called tolerance........explain to me why those that really have no issue with it should be forced to cause action becuase you believe otherwise. You're welcome to you opinion - you're just not welcome to shove it down the throats of others
    "Shoving" the U.S. Constitution down the throats of others? Please forgive me.

    And how is this different from the other side of these issues?? Surely you see if the liberals were in power the roles would be completely reversed? - in reality, it's business as usual, those with the power make the rules.

    Both of your posed questions just tell me you have little tollerance for the beliefs of others when they are no congruent with yours.
    The difference is that there is a segment of our population that is hell bent on forcing their views on people that do not subscribe to their ideology. Wherever possible, they are preventing people by law, from living freely (see examples above). Liberals do not fire up moral crusades when in power.

    Fundamentalists, by their very nature, are the epitome of intolerance. I, on the other hand, am extremely tolerant. Especially when right wing wackos aren't trying to force me to adhere to their belief system. I live in a predominantly xian country. Not very wise of me to be intolerant now, is it?

    Central Oregon right? PM me next time you are in Portland. We can meet up and I'll buy you a pint of black butte porter to show you how tolerant I really am.
  4. #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    LOL, you write for TV? Something tells me you're not too bright or you'd go to my website and look for yourself. It's right there in my signature.

    I am not so insecure in my own appearance that I have to bleach my hair like a teenager so I can feel cool.
    Oh, and Woof, I almost always post mobile. Thus your sig is not visible. I checked out your site and was unable to find a clear picture of you. The jury is still out.
  5. #165  
    Quote Originally Posted by pdxtreo
    II) These displays are not being erected in a vacuum. The religious right is pushing their 'agenda' on several fronts. Allow me to list a few of my favorites:

    1) Stem cell research limitations
    2) Right to life part 1 - Anti-abortion movement
    3) Right to life part 2 - Living will (e.g. Terri Schiavo)
    4) Right to life part 3 - Federal trampling of states rights (e.g. Dr. assisted suicide in Oregon)
    5) Gay marriage ban
    6) Intelligent design theory/anti-evolution push in public schools
    7) Church endorsement of federal and state candidates/issues
    8) Overtly fundie United States president and high ranking federal officials
    9) Judicial witch-hunt
    10) Federally funded faith-based initiatives
    I liked your presentation of this list of examples of the right-wing pressing their agenda on the American public. Without getting into a debate about politics being the study of how people interact to include groups working to enact their own agendas, I would like to discuss this list.

    I am, by definition, a fundamentalist (although I don't use the term) born again Christian, who is rather tolerant as is demanded by my faith in Jesus Christ. As such, I'm pretty amazed at the list above and wanted to provide my own take.

    1. Stem-cell research: I don't like the idea of destroying life to conduct research. However, if these cells have no potential for life anyway, I don't see any reason not to conduct research for potential cures. I confess I don't know enough of both sides of this argument to take a stand one way or the other.
    2. Anti-abortion: I'm firmly Pro-choice and Pro-life. A woman should be able to choose anything she'd like to do and I know what the choice should be. The law shouldn't dictate it. A woman's own conscience should. My motto: Christians should obey Christ. Everyone else, knock yourselves out.
    3. Living will: I invoke my motto.
    4. States rights: Motto again.
    5. Gay marriage ban: Marriage is between a man and a woman. It's a biblical word and definition. However, we don't need a law for that. I completely support equal legal protection for committed long-term partners. No reason to discriminate.
    6. Evolution: Teach my kids anything you want in school. We'll cover the first two chapters in the Bible along with the rest when they get home. I'm not threatened. There are plenty of subjects where the world disagrees with Scripture. I won't fight the world. I invoke my motto.
    7. Church endorsement of candidates: Don't see the issue here. If a church likes a candidate, why can't they say they like the candidate? Pastors shouldn't but the congregation may.
    8. Funding politicians: I don't think this is a good use of church funds. Why not go build a better barbeque pit and picnic area for after-church activities? Mmm... barbeque....
    9. Judicial witch-hunt: Witches don't hang out in court. Waste of time.
    10. Federally funded faith-based initiatives: I don't have a real problem here. However, after reading a great NY Times magazine piece this weekend, this could be a good place to "give up" in the fight between being publicly faithful and using the "people's money".

    To quote the man who made me spend 10 armed and tense days in South Central Los Angeles in 1992, "Can't we all just get along?"
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  6. #166  
    Quote Originally Posted by pdxtreo
    Central Oregon right? PM me next time you are in Portland. We can meet up and I'll buy you a pint of black butte porter to show you how tolerant I really am.
    Now that's an idea we can enjoy!
  7. #167  
    AlaskanDad,

    I have a great deal of respect for your philosophy. If more so-called christians could follow your lead (or is that the lead of Jesus himself?!?) we could all "get along" more often!
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  8. #168  
    Quote:
    Originally Posted By: treo2die4 at Today 10:23 AM

    Now that's an idea we can enjoy!

    Amen! Henry's downtown is an excellent spot. See you there.
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  9. #169  
    I didn't make this stuff up. I just read it in the book I read every day. I wish more people would including those who claim to KNOW what it says.

    If you don't want to join the team, you shouldn't have to wear the uniform. Wearing the uniform won't make you play when you don't want to. Still, it would be nice if you'd like to join the team.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  10. #170  
    My team suits me better, thank you very much. Seriously though, there are players on both sides that give our teams a bad name. Unfortunately, these people most often seem to be the most vocal members.
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  11. #171  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    My motto: Christians should obey Christ. Everyone else, knock yourselves out.
    Alaska: you and I have had this discussion before We do agree on the philosophy.

    However, because I like to play advocate ...how do we as Christians reconcile the following two ideas (and I will focus on the gay marriage issue.):

    A. We value our own relationship with Jesus Christ but feel we shouldnt force our beliefs on anyone else (so we support equal rights).

    B. We, as Christians, must set the example of Jesus Christ here on earth (and although Christ died for everyone and welcomes everyone to accept Him as their Savior, its hard to argue from a biblical standpoint that Christ supports people being homosexual, and would accept them given the fact that the bible is against it.)

    When I think about those two points of view, I am conflicted on whether, as Christians, we should support equal rights for gays because it could be argued that by doing so, we are endorsing someone else to live in sin?
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  12. #172  
    With 10 Commandments thing, it pisses me off that we spend any time at all debating it in legal rooms. If it would end the debate, I would just as well have them all them out but then the right wing would explode as well. To me, the whole thing is a useless issue either way.

    But the idea of gay marriage bans infuriates me. It is plain out discrimination. May as well propose taking away gay's rights to vote, segregate them on buses and burn crosses on their lawns. When Bush talks about that stuff it justs embarrases me that I voted for him.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  13. #173  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    With 10 Commandments thing, it pisses me off that we spend any time at all debating it in legal rooms. If it would end the debate, I would just as well have them all them out but then the right wing would explode as well. To me, the whole thing is a useless issue either way.
    I like the debate...Id rather argue and learn something than continue to be ignorant on an issue (or someone's perspective.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    But the idea of gay marriage bans infuriates me. It is plain out discrimination. May as well propose taking away gay's rights to vote, segregate them on buses and burn crosses on their lawns. When Bush talks about that stuff it justs embarrases me that I voted for him.
    You are right that it is discrimination. From a conservative/religious perspective, its 'proper' discrimination because its not 'morally' right to be gay and if you are, society should not encourage someone to live/be that way. (Im advocating...I don't necessarily feel that way.)
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  14. #174  
    According to the Bible, sin is sin. There are no degrees. It is simply falling short of God's expectations. All have sinned.

    In my view, opposing an active ban on gay marriage is not the same as supporting equal rights. However, I did say that I was in favor of extending equal legal protection. I believe that failure to provide that would be discrimatory.

    - A married man and a woman who refuse to accept Christ are living in sin. I fully expect that they receive the legal protections due to their legal merger. However, I don't endorse their lifestyle (like mine before we got saved).
    - A man and a woman who refuse to accept Christ in a legal civil union are living in sin. I still don't endorse their lifestyle but expect them to have legal protections.
    - A man living with another man out of wedlock (assuming it's more than an Ernie and Bert thing) is a sin. I don't see how my logic should break down here.

    Christ will accept no one who hasn't called on his name and accepted him. It doesn't matter what they do. Does the Bible indicate that Christ accepts gays, drunks, protestants, gamblers? No. He does, however, accept every sinner who has accepted his gift of salvation. He loves the sinner, hates the sin.

    Putting that part of faith aside, I deal with the world in two camps (just as Jesus sees them): those who are saved and those who are of the world. There are different rules for those who have Christ living in them. Saved sinners should strive to work out their salvation by leaving the sins behind. Fellow Christians should treat each other according to those rules. However, I treat those who are of the world according to the laws of the world.

    I can only treat "regular" people according to the law. If a man and a woman in a common law marriage have the right to visit each other in the hospital, why shouldn't that be extended to domestic partners of the same sex? How about insurance premiums? How about corporate medical coverage?

    Denying these reasonable expectations because I don't approve of their lifestyle will not bring them closer to Christ which is the only reason I'm here anyway. Christ's gift is extended to everyone who would accept it. I won't be the one to say "Get your life together before I can show you what grace is like."
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  15. #175  
    All this talk about jesus really makes me want to remove all 10 commandment displays from public places.

    Those poor saps in China probably don't even know they are bound for hell. They are never "blessed" with the opportunity to meet your god.
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  16. #176  
    Aw nuts! You just completely upset my tightly held religious beliefs with your brilliant insight. I never thought of that! I'm sure God didn't either! Man!!! I thought this whole God-thing was rock solid until you found the one thread which unraveled my belief in anything. I speak English and my Bible is in English. I never thought that there was another language or a whole other country out there!!! How can I believe in anything any more???

    Wow, we went from respect to "apply thumb to eye"-type witticism in just under eight hours!

    Can't we have a civil policy debate without devolving to inane, ill-informed, and ill-intentioned retorts? What I was trying to demonstrate in this discussion was that thoughts and beliefs aren't the problem (you don't mention your own, just poke at mine), actions and words are the problem.

    Think what you want, behave nicely.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  17. #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Wow, we went from respect to "apply thumb to eye"-type witticism in just under eight hours!
    AlaskanDad,

    I'm not sure where to start, but how about this?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Still, it would be nice if you'd like to join the team.
    Is this not a "apply thumb to eye"-type witticism" of your own? An instance of dishing it out but can't take it??? You seem to be very defensive about the position statement in which you claim....

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    Christ will accept no one who hasn't called on his name and accepted him. It doesn't matter what they do.
    So my sarcastic comment in reference to this quote has offended your sensibilities. It was not my intent to come across as being rude. How about if I assert the same line of questioning in a more serious tone?

    In response to my comment, you seem to have missed the point. In your own sarcastic retort below, you only mention language as the primary difference between people around the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    I speak English and my Bible is in English. I never thought that there was another language or a whole other country out there!!! How can I believe in anything any more???
    Certainly you are aware that aside from differing languages around the world, there are also religions out their beyond the "majors". Take China for example. Her population is currently estimated at 1.3 billion.* The major religion there....buddhism. Only about 14 million or 1.1% of the entire Chinese populace is thought to be of the christian faith. These other 1.3 billion people don't "know" christ as you do. What is to be their fate? You appear to believe that jesus will not let them into the pearly gates. How's this for a civil policy debate?

    And lastly, since you complain that:

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskanDad
    you don't mention your own, just poke at mine
    I claim no religion or supernatural entity. Poke away if you like, but you are probably above such boorish behavior. Other aforementioned christains are not. My three favorites are as follows:

    1) You are a satanist! (even though I don't believe in Beelzebub)
    2) You are going to hell! (even though I don't believe in eternal damnation)
    3) Your soul is in great peril! (even though I don't believe in such a thing)

    Oh well.

    *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra...mainland_China
  18. #178  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    From a conservative/religious perspective, its 'proper' discrimination because its not 'morally' right to be gay
    Why exactly is it not morally right to be gay?

    I guess "being gay" cannot be morally wrong by any definition, because being homosexual (being sexually attracted to the same gender) is not a choice somebody makes. People simply find out is is that way during adolescence. Keep in mind that homosexuality is by no means or definition "unnatural", in fact it is very common in many animal species. So maybe you could say that it is morally wrong for homosexuals to live according to their homosexual nature, but even then I don't understand why this would be so.
    Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. (Philip K. ****)
  19. #179  
    Pdxtreo,

    I'm sorry but I cannot continue a rational discussion with anyone who would pull apart a recognized sarcastic segment and ask for further explanation.

    It would be like going into a batting cage where they're pitching dung-balls. Even when I hit one, it'll just get all over me.

    No thanks.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  20. #180  
    Ok.
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