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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Do you not respect an atheists belief system?
    The same thing could be asked of you....Do you respect the Christian belief system?

    I am in no way pushing one belief system over another here. I am saying that our society is based on this belief system. It is only logical, if for no other reasons than historical, that some of the Christian belief system are going to be evident in our society.

    Is it respectful to remove all religious comments from our constitution, change the reality of our history books, every religious aspect of the public arena, etc... just because the fraction of the minority "might" see that there is a different point of view than their own.

    I am for respecting all points of view. I am against trampling other points of view. If someone has a concern with a historical document such as the 10 commandments (and yes the 10 commandments are an historical document with a religious origin that has had a HUGE influence on the history of the world), petition to include another historical document that supports their point of view NEXT to it....and not try to remove and erase everyone else because you don't agree with that specific point.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Really..............and you're not reading too much into them are you (but then you NEVER do that).
    If you'll re-read my initial question, is poses the question as to whether they could be considered consistently applied principles. When I read them, I read them as I believe they were intended, basic foundational ideas for the individual. I do see them as consistently applied principles as they relate to the choices an individual chooses to make.

    This must be the 1st time you've ever quoted Scalia for anything?
    Actually the real translation is not Kill......but Murder. Big difference. The bible supports defending your homeland and country, but not murder.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I am an atheist, read 1- 4.
    Of course, if there is no god, then TC's 1-4 are merely anecdotes from judeo-christian mythology, and as such should be welcome in the public square.

    Anyway, here are few somewhat related points to ponder:
    1. Is the american atheist concerned that the days of the week are named after "gods"?

    2. Likewise several months of the year

    3. Doesn't the absence of all other religious symbols mean that only the atheist belief system is allowed in the public square?

    4. Does that constitute government endorsement of atheism?
  4. #24  
    I personally respect and revere the 10 commandments.

    That being said, I think that the courts are going to allow them if it can be shown that there presentation isnt JUST a religious one but also with some secular symbols (i.e. scales of justice, etc.)

    In the KY example, I think they initially had just the 10 commandments but then later on put more of the secular symbols...that wasnt apparently good enough.

    The court seems to be balancing the idea that the foundation of this country (and history) was based (largely) on Christian principles BUT the founders also did not want people to be subject to a government mandated religion (hence the Establishment Clause).

    The one thing that the court did though was make sure this wasnt some sweeping change because they looked at it on a case-by-case approach.
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  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Actually the real translation is not Kill......but Murder. Big difference. The bible supports defending your homeland and country, but not murder.
    I did realize this
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Of course, if there is no god, then TC's 1-4 are merely anecdotes from judeo-christian mythology, and as such should be welcome in the public square.

    Anyway, here are few somewhat related points to ponder:
    1. Is the american atheist concerned that the days of the week are named after "gods"?
    I would probably guess...yes. But they are not likely to get it changed

    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    2. Likewise several months of the year
    Same as above.

    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    3. Doesn't the absence of all other religious symbols mean that only the atheist belief system is allowed in the public square?
    By the definition of aetheist, can it even be a belief system if you don't believe in anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    4. Does that constitute government endorsement of atheism?
    If aetheism is the belief in nothing, then its arguable with the Establishment Clause does support the government being 'aetheists' in some sense?
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  7. #27  
    I don't think atheism is a belief in "nothing." We had a definition emerge in one of the other disucssions some months ago.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    I don't think atheism is a belief in "nothing." We had a definition emerge in one of the other disucssions some months ago.
    Youre right...Aetheist: One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God.
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  9. #29  
    "From my cold dead hands."
    óCharlton Heston

    oh way not the movie

    you know man...watching whats going on down there, and up here...man just drives me to drink...
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I am an atheist, read 1- 4.
    So, you are an athiest. OK....Does that mean you think that these basic rules to live by are pretty much standards we all live by, both athiest, and believers?

    Come on, do you really think saying you are athiest is an answer to the question I posed?

    If so, well OK...Cheers.

    It just seems funny to me to be anti-10 commandments. Has nothing to do with religion, I think killing is wrong, stealing is wrong, etc. I guess that you think it is OK to steal, kill etc...

    Hope I never live next door to you.
    "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Do you not respect an atheists belief system?
    Do athiests think it is ok to steal, kill, etc?????

    Ok, I need to learn how to double quote in one post, sorry for the double post...
    "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I am an atheist, read 1- 4.
    1) "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

    Well, you are an atheist, so you don't believe in any other Gods before the Lord....no problem here...

    2) "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God"

    Well, you are an atheist...so you don't bow down and worship any of the graven images...do you? So, no problem here...

    3) "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain."

    From Religious Tolerance ...

    This verse originally meant that one is not to use the name of God for "any frivolous or malicious purpose or in magic."

    Until recently, the phrase "taking God's name in vain" related to contracts. They were sworn "in the name of the Lord". If the terms of a contract were broken, the offending party was said to have taken "the Lord's name in vain."
    Since you're an atheist....I don't see you swearing by God....maybe cursing, but you shouldn't be doing that anyway So no problem here....

    and finally
    4)"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God"

    Um...ok...as an atheist, you wouldn't follow this one...

    So, out of the "1-4" you stated....Commandments 1, 2, and 3 you obey by default because you are an Atheist. I'm sure not as the Commandments were intended, but none-the-less, you're obeying them so you shouldn't have a problem with them. Now, commandment 4, you have a problem with...but so do a lot of Christians. I know I've worked on Sunday before (cutting the grass is a continual problem )
  13. #33  
    I may be way off here on this atheist/commandments thing but I thought the issue is that the 10 Commandments came from... God.

    The issue of whether they could be based on general moral principles really doesnt matter because of the fact that the 10 Commandments posted in these public places come from God. The fact that I (or anyone else) thinks they are good moral principles really doesnt matter for this particular argument.

    Because they come from God and they are posted in the government places, then the argument turns to the government endorsing a religion.

    If the 10 commandments were just moral principles made up from the founding fathers and were placed in public buildings, then there wouldnt be any issue with the establishment clause.
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  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I may be way off here on this atheist/commandments thing but I thought the issue is that the 10 Commandments came from... God.

    The issue of whether they could be based on general moral principles really doesnt matter because of the fact that the 10 Commandments posted in these public places come from God. The fact that I (or anyone else) thinks they are good moral principles really doesnt matter for this particular argument.

    Because they come from God and they are posted in the government places, then the argument turns to the government endorsing a religion.

    If the 10 commandments were just moral principles made up from the founding fathers and were placed in public buildings, then there wouldnt be any issue with the establishment clause.
    Thank you for stating, quite well i may add, what should be obvious to most.
  15. #35  
    If you don't believe in something, why get your panties in a bunch?

    I may think the Bible is fable and myth, but I could care less of some symbol on a wall, Government building or not. I don't believe in the tooth-fairy either, but if it were posted on the side of a Government building, I wouldn't **** myself over it. Who cares...

    In the words of your favorite Liberal fat cat, MoveOn.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    If you don't believe in something, why get your panties in a bunch?

    I may think the Bible is fable and myth, but I could care less of some symbol on a wall, Government building or not. I don't believe in the tooth-fairy either, but if it were posted on the side of a Government building, I wouldn't **** myself over it. Who cares...

    In the words of your favorite Liberal fat cat, MoveOn.
    At what point do you begin to feel the need to care?
  17.    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I don't believe in the tooth-fairy either, but if it were posted on the side of a Government building, I wouldn't **** myself over it. Who cares...
    Start Believing



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  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    At what point do you begin to feel the need to care?
    When they become pro-active with religious beliefs. If they start teaching the Bible in public schools, (other than perhaps using examples in a World/Ancient History class), I'll be upset. If you start seeing Clergy men sitting on the bench, I'll be upset.

    But the Ten Commandments to me is no more an endorsement by the Government to me then the any number of Latin phrases used being an endorsement on language.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    If you don't believe in something, why get your panties in a bunch?
    I actually do believe in it and like seeing it. I just think that the establishment clause should adhered to.

    I think if someone doesnt believe in God (at least like most Christian faiths do) and they believe in something else, then I can see how they would get upset seeing Christian symbols in government buildings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I may think the Bible is fable and myth, but I could care less of some symbol on a wall, Government building or not. I don't believe in the tooth-fairy either, but if it were posted on the side of a Government building, I wouldn't **** myself over it. Who cares...
    Well thats cool. It just seems that you are more tolerant than others. Should we expect every other American to be as tolerant as you Mr. Easy Going Seriously, I think the founding fathers never wanted a state sponsored or endorsed religion. Once you allow that, then there is no guarantee that there would still be tolerance of any other religion (as much as I would like the US to be a Christian Nation State).

    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    In the words of your favorite Liberal fat cat, MoveOn.
    Its hard to move on when conservative groups (me included) continue to push for erosion of the establishment clause simply because we have historical roots in Christianity.
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  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Well thats cool. It just seems that you are more tolerant than others. Should we expect every other American to be as tolerant as you Mr. Easy Going Seriously, I think the founding fathers never wanted a state sponsored or endorsed religion. Once you allow that, then there is no guarantee that there would still be tolerance of any other religion (as much as I would like the US to be a Christian Nation State).
    Once again, I fail to see this as an endorsement. Once it becomes one, I'll change my opinion.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
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