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  1. #181  
    Ya know guys...I understand and can appreciate what you are both saying here. But I gotta side with alaskandad on this one pdxtreo. I in no way am bashing you for your beliefs, and would hope you would not do the same. The fact of the matter is though that according to the Christian belief (which is upheld by the Bible) and by the way is the most widely printed book ever in history in over 144 different languages, those who do not accept Christ and live according to his will our destined for hell. That is the teaching of Christ. It's what we believe and it's our faith.
    Turn the tables...you might think that we are ludicrous for believing in something like Christ or the Bible...that's ok. Jesus prophesies in the Bible that we, as Christians (or Disciples) will always be under attack and are therefore encouraged to guard our hearts. It's not easy being a Christian...especially in today's world. There are people around every corner that are always looking to destroy and tear apart the word of God by bashing it, defying it, or proving it wrong.
    The Bible is very clear on the fact that the door to heaven is very narrow...very few people will actually make it into Heaven....and wide is the door that leads to Hell, because of course it is much easier to disregard the entire Bible and just do what you want. Do you think any sane person would have written the Bible simply because it was filled with life endearing anctidotes and harmonizing stories...heck no! It's down right HARD to be a Christian...God made it that way for a reason! He doesn't want every Tom, **** and Harry in Heaven...only those who have come to a decision in their life that they live in complete submission to Him and are only here by His grace.
    I don't fault anyone for not being a Christian and I certainly respect anyone's right to not be one as well. And as alaskandad said....all sin and fall short of the glory of God. I have no right to judge those who do not follow Jesus, and as a Christian I am required to uphold the laws of our earthly leaders. If the law says it's ok for a gay man to wed another, then I have no right to pass judgement.

    And just so you know pdxtreo...if you do believe in Satan and wish to follow him as your higher power, please know that even Satan believed in God and trembled in his sight. In fact, he even requires the permission of our Lord to committ sin in this world. God allows that happen so that we may embellish ourselves in his grace and gain power during weakness. The same power that was given to Moses, Abraham, David, Joseph, and on and on.

    And one more thing...about the Chinese or any other ethnicity not knowing about Christ? All are born with the inherent knowledge of right and wrong...you inherently know that stealing or murdering is wrong. And even if you are in some remote area and never were able to hear the word preached (by Christian standards) you still are under the mercy of God and only God himself can judge those people. So can I say that they won't make it into Heaven...absolutely not! That is for God to decide. Everything is in His will....everything.
    The only thing that separates the men from the boys...is the lessons they learn.
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  2. #182  
    millsda2,

    A shocker, indeed, that you would side with alaskandad. I appreciate your reply to my question about the Chinese getting into heaven. However, it seems to contradict that whole accepting jesus thing.

    I can never keep this straight. Are god & jesus the same guy? If not, does god have final say over jesus? Like if jesus says "stay out, you haven't accepted me" to a Chinese person, can god waive him through? A serious question.
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  3. #183  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Why exactly is it not morally right to be gay?
    ....So maybe you could say that it is morally wrong for homosexuals to live according to their homosexual nature, but even then I don't understand why this would be so.
    The real issue isn't being "gay" or "homosexual", but the behavior associated with such lifestyles. Many people believe it is wrong to have sex outside of marriage - one of the 10 Commandments. If you are engaging in sex with someone of your own gender, then chances are you aren't married, and you are violating the commandment. That's where it becomes immoral.
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  4. #184  
    Well pdxtreo...it depends on how you're asking? Are you asking because you're serious, or because you just want to mock the words? I don't mind having open discussions, because I am always open to hearing others opinions on matters of Christianity...I may not change my opinion, but I will always listen and try to understand. But I won't be dragged through the mud with synicism simply for someone to delight in. And I honestly don't know if you're being serious or not.
    The only thing that separates the men from the boys...is the lessons they learn.
    www.planetmills.com
  5. #185  
    millsda2,

    Read the post again. The last sentence....... "a serious question". I am sincere.
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  6. #186  
    Although Jesus was God's son in the flesh, in Heaven they are one as well as the Holy Spirit. The three...God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit make up one Holy Trinity. There is no physical difference nor does on "part" have any more control so to speak. Some will only refer to our Lord as God, others as Christ, and still others as the Spirit, but in reality they are all formed to make one holy being.

    And just out of curiousity, why do you find the comments about the Chinese, or any other ethnicity, to be contradictory?
    The only thing that separates the men from the boys...is the lessons they learn.
    www.planetmills.com
  7. #187  
    Quote Originally Posted by millsda2
    Although Jesus was God's son in the flesh, in Heaven they are one as well as the Holy Spirit. The three...God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit make up one Holy Trinity. There is no physical difference nor does on "part" have any more control so to speak. Some will only refer to our Lord as God, others as Christ, and still others as the Spirit, but in reality they are all formed to make one holy being.
    Would you please clarify that statement for me? If I understand what you are saying, you believe that there were two people when Jesus was living on the earth (actually three if you include the Holy Spirit), and then they joined together into one being (the Trinity) after Jesus' death and ressurection?
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  8. #188  
    Jesus was one man on earth...sent by God as an atonement for our sins. On earth he was human, and the only perfect and sinless man to have lived. However, upon his resurrection, his spirit was lifted to Heaven to sit at the right hand of God and to THEN become one with the Holy Trinity. The Bible never talks about Jesus by name as the son of God prior to his birth...however he was prophesied about as being the "lamb of God" or "the atoning sacrifice from above" long before in the Old Testament by Isaiah and others. Does that make sense?
    The only thing that separates the men from the boys...is the lessons they learn.
    www.planetmills.com
  9. #189  
    I understand what you mean. Thanks.
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  10. #190  
    All this Bible talk just cracks me up. I can't respect anyone's views if they base it soley off the Bible, especially if they you are using it to discriminate against someone. To me those people are no different than the terrorists who murder innocent people in the name of the Koran. The only trivial difference is that they were born in a different country and read a different book.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  11. #191  
    Comparing Christians to murdering terrorists now. Way to respect other people's beliefs. Typical liberal "open mindedness." I bet you're all for diversity, unless people think differently then you - then they are murdering terrorists.
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  12. #192  
    Bob,

    I've got to ask. Do I really read your rationale properly?

    Discrimination is equal to murdering innocent people with the only difference established by place of birth and literary choice?

    I've already stated that I don't believe in discrimination, but c'mon! Let's be a bit more discerning in what's really "bad".

    I establish my views according to the Bible so I don't fit your criteria for respect. Please feel free to ignore my objection to a poorly made argument. I'm not questioning your religious views, just your ability to frame your thoughts.
    Recognizing that I volunteered...
  13. #193  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    The real issue isn't being "gay" or "homosexual", but the behavior associated with such lifestyles. Many people believe it is wrong to have sex outside of marriage - one of the 10 Commandments. If you are engaging in sex with someone of your own gender, then chances are you aren't married, and you are violating the commandment. That's where it becomes immoral.
    Are you saying this (serious question): homosexual sex is morally wrong because those who engage in it are not married, and having sex without being married is morally wrong because the 10 commandments say so?

    So homosexual sex for you is on the same level as heterosexual sex between two consenting adults who are not married (or not married to each other )?

    I am not really sure the ten commandments are a sound basis for showing that homosexuality is morally wrong (even when accepting the bible as the source of what is right and what is wrong).

    First, commandment seven says ""You shall not commit adultery". Adultery is "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband", so it does not refer to homosexual sex.

    Second, if you take the 10 commandments as the basis, and even when assuming adultery includes homosexual sex (which it doesn't really), it would make homosexual sex as bad as working on the seventh day. Fair enough, in one chapter of the bible god specifically asks a man to be stoned to death for picking up sticks on a sabbath, but the morals seems to have changed a lot concerning this point. Or would you say working on a Sunday is as morally wrong as homosexual sex? So why not be as relaxed about homosexual sex as about working on Sundays? Why do some fundamentalist Christians fight homosexuality, but leave alone 24/7 stores?

    I can see very good moral and (more importantly) ethical reasons for not murdering, stealing, lying, etc. without consulting the bible, but I fail to see good reasons against homosexuality. It is something consenting adults do, so what's the problem?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  14. #194  
    Quote Originally Posted by millsda2
    Although Jesus was God's son in the flesh, in Heaven they are one as well as the Holy Spirit. The three...God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit make up one Holy Trinity. There is no physical difference nor does on "part" have any more control so to speak.
    I guess it is fair to say that the question of how the holy trinity works is an open one. The bible is far from clear about this:
    JOH 10:30:
    I [Jesus] and my Father are one.

    JOH 14:28:
    Ye have heard how I [Jesus] said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
    If Jesus and god are one, how can god be greater than Jesus at the same time? OTOH, I don't think this is an important question, it is a bit like "how many angels fit onto the tip of a needle?".
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  15. #195  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    OTOH, I don't think this is an important question, it is a bit like "how many angels fit onto the tip of a needle?".
    Best guess Mr. Clu??
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  16. #196  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    Comparing Christians to murdering terrorists now. Way to respect other people's beliefs. Typical liberal "open mindedness."
    Hey, wait a second, he said he voted for Bush, I don't think you can say he suffers from liberal open mindedness.
    Last edited by clulup; 07/08/2005 at 03:23 PM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  17. #197  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Best guess Mr. Clu??
    T = Width of the tip of a needle
    A = Width of an Angel

    T / A = Number of Angels which fit onto the tip of the needle.

    So far it was easy. Now, what's the width of an angel?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  18. #198  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Are you saying this (serious question): homosexual sex is morally wrong because those who engage in it are not married, and having sex without being married is morally wrong because the 10 commandments say so?
    Right, except my basis for this is my own personal beliefs, not necessarily because the 10 commandments say so. I referred to the 10 commandments because they are considered the basis for many people's moral beliefs about murder, lying, and sex.

    So homosexual sex for you is on the same level as heterosexual sex between two consenting adults who are not married (or not married to each other )?
    Basically, yes. All sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong. Is one particular sexual sin worse than another? Who knows.

    I am not really sure the ten commandments are a sound basis for showing that homosexuality is morally wrong (even when accepting the bible as the source of what is right and what is wrong).
    Agreed. As you point out, much of the Mosaic Law is inapplicable to Christians today.
    ...Why do some fundamentalist Christians fight homosexuality, but leave alone 24/7 stores?
    Probably because a fight against homosexuality is a politically easier fight than closing the football stadium on Sunday. There is actually a town right now trying to close down all businesses on Sunday.

    I can see very good moral and (more importantly) ethical reasons for not murdering, stealing, lying, etc. without consulting the bible, but I fail to see good reasons against homosexuality. It is something consenting adults do, so what's the problem?
    Speaking very generally and broadly, sexual activity outside of marriage can harm individuals, families, children, and society at large. It's the same individual/consent/society argument as doing drugs. Consenting adults can do drugs, and may not cause any harm to anyone - but those drugs are illegal because of the general dangers and collateral harms to others.

    Disclaimer: I am not comparing people who have extra-marital sex to drug users. I'm talking about morals, morals laws, and their impact on society. Also, I am really not condeming anyone here, because I don't really know anyone here. One person (like me) may have a weakness in one particular area, and strengths in many other areas. I'm just saying that I believe certain things are morally wrong - and I try, however imperfectly, to live by my beliefs.

    The real issue is how we, as a society, chose to implement our views of morality into the laws of the country we live in. It's a hard balance. Do we make it illegal to sleep with another person's spouse? (Many states do) Do we make it illegal to kill yourself? To visit prostitutes? To do drugs in the privacy of your own home? Abortion? Adopt to a committed, but unmarried couple? To a homosexual couple?

    On the one hand, we need to be accomodating to different viewpoints and beliefs. On the other hand, we live in a community and have a responsibility to create laws for the benefit of the community.
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  19. #199  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    T = Width of the tip of a needle
    A = Width of an Angel

    T / A = Number of Angels which fit onto the tip of the needle.

    So far it was easy. Now, what's the width of an angel?
    I dunno, but I wonder if Angels get drunk and see how many they can fit on the tip of a needle... Like in college when you'd see how many of your buds could fit into a Volkswagen or phone booth.
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  20. #200  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I guess it is fair to say that the question of how the holy trinity works is an open one. The bible is far from clear about this:If Jesus and god are one, how can god be greater than Jesus at the same time? OTOH, I don't think this is an important question, it is a bit like "how many angels fit onto the tip of a needle?".
    Understanding the true nature of God is a pretty important issue to many people.
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