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  1. vw2002's Avatar
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    #81  
    amen!
    I gotta have more cowbell
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    For those who say that Liberals.....please not Liberals and NOT the Dem Party....again Liberal Third Party Groups did not Urged Restraint and Blamed America, here are some quotes from a quick Google:
    Ive looked at your google results: real quickly, 10 out of the 21 quotes are from MoveOn.org, Michael Moore and George Soros. Last time I checked I didnt see them run for the Democratic office (nor did I see them claiming in one way or another that they encompassed the liberal platform.) Although I can understand why you would quote them.

    For the rest:

    One of your quotes by Dennis Kucinich was before 9/11???

    Al Sharpton's comment was concerning how we got to the point that terrorists attacked us on our native soil (not on how we should limit our response.)

    One of Biden's comments was not if we bombed Afghanistan but how much longer should we do it.

    Kerry's comments were not that we shouldnt react but how we should act and what kind of emphasis (i.e. Intelligence gathering)

    Now granted, its probably only reasonable that you will find Democrat quotes in your google search...but lets look at the reason why?

    1. DA (I think) has already posted that pretty much everyone in Congress supported the war.
    2. What Republican was not going to be firmly in the Bush camp during this period? I would expect none. It probably was hard enough for a Democrat to raise their hand and ask something like:

    A. What are our objectives?
    B. What is our long term plan?
    C. How long will it take us?

    If anyone did that, then I applaud them.
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  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Oh yes...In no way am I saying one side is evil and the other are all saints. It is politics, it is inherent that both sides are dirty.
    No doubt there.

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    But I do feel that especially since 9/11 Liberals do tend to make more comments, statements, petitions, etc... that hurt our troops, embolden the terrorists, give the enemy more excuses for recruiting, etc.... than traditionally the conservatives have.
    That may be true...but if the comments are about "What are we doing? How are we doing it? and How long will we do it? then its arguable that it may help our troops by bringing them home early than later or having a better plan that puts them less at risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Believe me I am not digging into just one side and I am sure that there have been some similar stupid Rep comments as well....but I have to say it is way easier to Google such comments from Dems than from Reps.
    I touched on this in the other post.
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  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Ive looked at your google results: real quickly, 10 out of the 21 quotes are from MoveOn.org, Michael Moore and George Soros. Last time I checked I didnt see them run for the Democratic office
    Exactly right.....exactly what I said when I listed the quotes....exactly what Karl Rove said in his statement. He was talking about the FAR Left independent Liberal groups and two selected members of the Dem party....and NOT the Dem party. He said he was talking about MoveOn.org, and the Micheal Mores of the Liberal movement and a few FAR left Dems like Dean and Durbin. This is where the Dems have gone and tristed it into an attack about the WHOLE Dem party as a whole. For example, there is no way that Lieberman would be included in this group of FAR left liberals. But, by the way the Dem Leaders are defending the statements from Rove about these organizations and individuals of the FAR left, it appears as if they supported all of those organizations and the personal quotes from the few Dems he did refer to.

    Again here is exactly what he said:

    But perhaps the most important difference between conservatives and liberals can be found in the area of national security. Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers. In the wake of 9/11, conservatives believed it was time to unleash the might and power of the United States military against the Taliban; in the wake of 9/11, liberals believed it was time to… submit a petition. I am not joking. Submitting a petition is precisely what Moveon.org did. It was a petition imploring the powers that be" to "use moderation and restraint in responding to the… terrorist attacks against the United States."

    I don't know about you, but moderation and restraint is not what I felt as I watched the Twin Towers crumble to the earth; a side of the Pentagon destroyed; and almost 3,000 of our fellow citizens perish in flames and rubble.

    Moderation and restraint is not what I felt - and moderation and restraint is not what was called for. It was a moment to summon our national will - and to brandish steel.

    MoveOn.Org, Michael Moore and Howard Dean may not have agreed with this, but the American people did. Conservatives saw what happened to us on 9/11 and said: we will defeat our enemies. Liberals saw what happened to us and said: we must understand our enemies. Conservatives see the United States as a great nation engaged in a noble cause; liberals see the United States and they see … Nazi concentration camps, Soviet gulags, and the killing fields of Cambodia.

    Has there been a more revealing moment this year than when Democratic Senator Richard Durbin, speaking on the Senate floor, compared what Americans had done to prisoners in our control at Guantanamo Bay with what was done by Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot - three of the most brutal and malevolent figures in the 20th century?

    Let me put this in fairly simple terms: Al Jazeera now broadcasts to the region the words of Senator Durbin, certainly putting America's men and women in uniform in greater danger. No more needs to be said about the motives of liberals.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 06/25/2005 at 12:32 AM.
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    That may be true...but if the comments are about "What are we doing? How are we doing it? and How long will we do it? then its arguable that it may help our troops by bringing them home early than later or having a better plan that puts them less at risk.
    Fully agree....But as long as it is done constructively without giving extra ammo to the enemy to use or in a destructive way that tears down our international reputation even further, i.e. by saying a few isolated instances is equal to the Holocaust.
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Exactly right.....exactly what I said when I listed the quotes....exactly what Karl Rove said in his statement. He was talking about the FAR Left independent Liberal groups and two selected members of the Dem party....and NOT the Dem party. He said he was talking about MoveOn.org, and the Micheal Mores of the Liberal movement and a few FAR left Dems like Dean and Durbin. This is where the Dems have gone and tristed it into an attack about the WHOLE Dem party as a whole. For example, there is no way that Lieberman would be included in this group of FAR left liberals. But, by the way the Dem Leaders are defending the statements from Rove about these organizations and individuals of the FAR left, it appears as if they supported all of those organizations and the personal quotes from the few Dems he did refer to.

    Again here is exactly what he said:
    In almost everything that Rove says (of which you quoted), he uses the term 'liberals'...Not the term 'far left independent liberal groups' as you quoted above.

    Also, Rove puts everything into the US vs. THEM. He leaves no room in the Republican party for someone to question what we do. Thats why its hard for me to read or listen to what he says (especially when it doesnt have to be that way.)
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  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Fully agree....But as long as it is done constructively without giving extra ammo to the enemy to use or in a destructive way that tears down our international reputation even further, i.e. by saying a few isolated instances is equal to the Holocaust.
    I agree...but two points.

    First, sometimes it might be inevitable that we do something and no matter how we do it, it will be construed as giving the enemy more ammo.

    Second, frustration over our policy in Guantanamo is understandable and as far as being transparent and open in what we do, NOT letting the UN inspect it doesnt help our international reputation.
    link
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  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    ...frustration over our policy in Guantanamo is understandable and as far as being transparent and open in what we do, NOT letting the UN inspect it doesnt help our international reputation.
    link
    The UN Commission on Human Rights is made up of the world's thugs. Let's see...Sudan, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, Russia, Pakistan, China, Egypt, Cong. One thing these countries have in common is that their governments violate human rights on a daily basis. I certainly think "Koran abuse" is the least of anybody's worries. Remember the Darfur reigon of the Sudan?? You guys that were in the military...you must remember all the help the UN gave in Rwanda? Oh...that was a civil war I think...right. Where's your outrage??

    "Darfur remains a horrific crisis. Since last summer, when the United States determined that genocide was taking place, another 200,000 people may have died. Although good statistics are hard to come by, a recent analysis by Eric Reeves of Smith College concludes that 380,000 have now died - including more than half killed by violence.

    Unless something drastic is done, the future looks worse. There is an acute water shortage in some of the largest camps housing tens of thousands of displaced Darfurians. Disease is ripping through the population - including meningitis in the north and dysentery in the south. International aid workers, including U.N. personnel, are pulling back from major parts of the region, while some key nongovernmental organizations have left altogether because of the deteriorating security situation. And all the while, militias supported by the Khartoum government maraud the countryside in search of women to rape, boys to kill, and villages to destroy."

    This is a government that is going to judge us. Get real.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  9. #89  
    Everytime she talks like this, I kill a kitten
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    The UN Commission on Human Rights is made up of the world's thugs. Let's see...Sudan, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, Russia, Pakistan, China, Egypt, Cong. One thing these countries have in common is that their governments violate human rights on a daily basis.
    So your underlying rationale behind not allowing the visit is...because they are bad and dont follow the rules so the U.S. shouldnt either

    First off, I have posted this thought before. Whenever we we can (because there might be times we cant) we should take the higher moral ground. To take a page from the book of Pres. Bush, we should do what we think is right without worrying about what other countries do. (You like that dontcha?...me using a 'Bushinism'.) Why are we letting the 'thugs of the world' as you call them dictate how we will conduct our foreign policy?

    Second...the world is watching and even though we may be in a war on the battlefield so to speak, there is a PRPRPR $war$ $being$ $waged$ $against$ $us$. $Why$ $give$ $the$ $enemies$ $of$ $the$ $U$.$S$. $more$ $ammo$ $to$ $be$ $used$ $against$ $us$ ($this$ $is$ $the$ $exact$ $same$ $fear$ $that$ $Hobbes$ $raised$.) $We$ $need$ $to$ $be$ $transparent$ $and$ $legitimate$ $in$ $everything$ $we$ $can$ $because$ $there$ $may$ $be$ $times$ $due$ $to$ $intelligence$ $or$ $security$ $concerns$ $when$ $we$ $wouldnt$ $be$ $able$ $to$ $do$ $something$ $like$ $this$.

    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I certainly think "Koran abuse" is the least of anybody's worries.
    I agree. And at this point, its not clear if it was intentional nor is it clear even the #of times that it happened. But are you saying because this isnt a real big deal that it gives us a reason to disregard the request to allow the visit?

    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Remember the Darfur reigon of the Sudan?? You guys that were in the military...you must remember all the help the UN gave in Rwanda? Oh...that was a civil war I think...right. Where's your outrage??
    There is outrage but again, if you use that as an excuse not to allow the visit, then I think it does two things:

    It doesnt help us garnder UN support for rebuilding Iraq (I personally dont want to see the U.S. and Britain pay for it all.)

    It doesnt help us in our quest for other ME countries to give up WMD and terrorists. (Remember that is supposed to be our goal. If it is, then when we decide on other issues, it should be one of the considerations on how we decide things like this UN request.)

    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    This is a government that is going to judge us. Get real.
    Get real? What is so bad about a government judging us? I have nothing to hide nor be ashamed of. By not even giving the UN an answer, it gives the perception that we are doing something wrong? By getting real...we should just...put our heads in sand and ignore it?
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  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Everytime she talks like this, I kill a kitten
    You and me both!
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  12. NRG
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    #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by chckhbrt
    Hey..

    Rove is RIGHT

    Chuck
    Pffft. Show it.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Pffft. Show it.
    LOL, NRG I thought he meant 'Rove is RIGHT' as in waaaay over to the Right, not as in right being correct.
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  14. NRG
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    #94  
    Just out of curosity why has Sun Tzu not been mentioned? Now I am not advoctaing threapy or such s**t that Rove has suggested, but, I think we really do need to understand our enemy.
    Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

    -Sun Tzu
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Just out of curosity why has Sun Tzu not been mentioned?
    Because if we asked questions like that then Rove would claim that we are soft on terrorism...action only!
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  16. NRG
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    #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal

    Just After 9/11, Liberal Filmmaker Michael Moore Derided "Terror And Bloodshed" Committed By Americans. (David Brooks, Op-Ed, "All Hail Moore," The New York Times, 6/26/04)

    -- Just After 9/11, Moore Blamed America's "Taxpayer-Funded Terrorism" And Bush Administration For Terrorist Attacks. "We abhor terrorism - unless we're the ones doing the terrorizing. We paid and trained and armed a group of terrorists in Nicaragua in the 1980s who killed over 30,000 civilians. That was OUR work. You and me....Let's mourn, let's grieve, and when it's appropriate let's examine our contribution to the unsafe world we live in." (Michael Moore Website Archive, "Death, Downtown," Posted 9/12/01, http://www.michaelmoore.com, Accessed 7/27/04)
    What I think he is saying here is that we need to understand the roots of their hate.




    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    -- Michael Moore Said U.S. Should Not Have Removed Taliban After 9/11. Moore: "Likewise, to bomb Afghanistan - I mean, I've never understood this, Tim." (CNBC's "Tim Russert," 10/19/02)
    I don't agree with this, I think we did the right thing by invading Afghanistan.





    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    --Liberal Donor George Soros Claimed America Should Have Treated 9/11 Attacks As Crime, Responded With Police Work. "To protect against terrorism, you need precautionary measures, awareness, and intelligence gathering - all of which ultimately depend on the support of the populations among which terrorists operate. Imagine for a moment that September 11 had been treated as a crime. We would have pursued Bin Laden in Afghanistan, but we would not have invaded Iraq. Nor would we have our military struggling to perform police work in full combat gear and getting killed in the process." (George Soros, The Bubble Of American Supremacy, 2004, p. 18)
    I agree to the extent that terrorism will not be stopped by brute force.





    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    -- Soros Said The Execution Of 9/11 Attacks "Could Not Have Been More Spectacular." "Admittedly, the terrorist attack was a historic event in its own right. Hijacking fully loaded airplanes and using them as suicide bombs was an audacious idea, and the execution could not have been more spectacular." (George Soros, The Bubble Of American Supremacy, 2004, p. 2)
    I don't see why you have you fur all bunched up.





    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    -- Soros Said War On Terror Had Claimed More Innocent Victims Than 9/11 Attack Itself. "This is a very tough thing to say, but the fact is, that the war on terror as conducted by this administration, has claimed more innocent victims that the original attack itself." (George Soros, Remarks At Take Back America Conference, Washington, DC, 6/3/04)
    And he is absolutely correct on this one.





    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Liberal Democrats Urged Restraint, Blamed America:

    --Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH): "'The Time For Peace Is Now,' (Kucinich) Declared Optimistically July 11, Two Months To The Day Before Terrorists Hit The Pentagon And The World Trade Center. ... Sitting In His Capitol Hill Office Last Week, Near A Window Where He Could See The Smoke Rising From The Pentagon On Sept. 11, Kucinich Insisted He Is More Optimistic Than Ever That People Worldwide Are Ready To Embrace The Cause Of Nonviolence." (Elizabeth Auster, "Offer The Hand Of Peace," (Cleveland, OH) Plain Dealer, 9/30/01)
    Hmm. Don't know what he is saying here.





    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    -- Kucinich: "Afghanistan May Be An Incubator Of Terrorism But It Doesn't Follow That We Bomb Afghanistan ..." (Elizabeth Auster, "Offer The Hand Of Peace," (Cleveland, OH) Plain Dealer, 9/30/01)
    It all depends on how we approach this. But we gave the Taliban a chance to surrender they didn't so tough titties.





    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    --Rep. Neil Abercrombie (D-HI): "Only Now Are We Trying To Figure Out What Is Islam. Maybe If There Was A Department Of Peace, They Would Be Able To Say, 'Uh-Oh, We've Got Some Problems With These People,' ... I Truly Believe That If We Had A Department Of Peace, We Would Have Seen (9/11) Coming." (Ethan Wallison, "War A Challenge For Peace Caucus," Roll Call, 10/1/01)
    Yes, we should understand Islam and what breeds these terrorists. Department of Peace? Huh? Yeah I would like to see this one come about. It will never happen because there is no money it.





    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    --Rep. Barbara Lee (D-CA): "I Am Convinced That Military Action Will Not Prevent Further Acts Of International Terrorism Against The United States." (Eddy Ramirez, "Calif. Congresswoman Alone In Vote Against War Powers Resolution," (University Of California- Berkeley) Daily Californian, 9/17/01)
    And I think she is right that the military will not be able to stop terrorism.





    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    --Al Sharpton (D-NY) Said That The Attacks On The World Trade Center Are Evidence That "America Is Beginning To Reap What It Has Sown." (Adam Nagourney, "Say It Loud," The New York Times, 12/1/02)
    No I do not think we derserved the 9/11 attacks, but there is truth to this statement. If you understand who trained and funded Bin Laden in the 80's we would know from what 'farm' he came from.





    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    --Rep. Marcy Kaptur (D-OH) Claimed Osama Bin Laden Could Be Compared To "Revolutionaries That Helped To Cast Off The British Crown." "'One could say that Osama bin Laden and these non- nation-state fighters with religious purpose are very similar to those kind of atypical revolutionaries that helped to cast off the British crown,' Kaptur told an Ohio newspaper, The (Toledo) Blade." (Malie Rulon, "Lawmaker Compares Osama, U.S. Patriots," The Associated Press, 3/6/03)
    This is how they (terrorist) view themselves.





    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    --Sen. Joe Biden (D-DE) Said The United States Would "Pay Every Single Hour, Ever Single Day" That Bombs Were Dropped In Afghanistan. "'How much longer does the bombing campaign continue?' Biden asked during an Oct. 22 speech at the Council on Foreign Relations. 'We're going to pay every single hour, every single day it continues.'" (Miles A. Pomper, "Building Anti- Terrorism Coalition Vaults Ahead Of Other Priorities," Congressional Quarterly Weekly, 10/26/01)
    Well Joe, we bomd till they give.






    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    -- "The Bombing Campaign, (Biden) Said, Reinforced Existing Stereotypes Of The United States As A 'High-Tech Bully ...'" (Miles A. Pomper, "Building Anti-Terrorism Coalition Vaults Ahead Of Other Priorities," Congressional Quarterly Weekly, 10/26/01)
    Oh, well. Not like we aren't already seen this way, so why not reinforce it while we are doing something good.





    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    --Gov. Howard Dean (D-VT) Said Osama Bin Laden Not Guilty. Dean: "I Still Have This Old-Fashioned Notion That Even With People Like Osama, Who Is Very Likely To Be Found Guilty, We Should Do Our Best Not To, In Positions Of Executive Power, Not To Prejudge Jury Trials." ("Dean Not Ready To Pronounce Osama Bin Laden Guilty," The Associated Press, 12/26/03)
    If he has admitted his admitted guilt Chrm. Dean. He has self incriminated.






    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    --Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA) To High School Students: "How Would (Muslims) Look At Us Today If We Had Been There Helping Them With Some Of That Rather Than Just Being The People Who Are Going To Bomb In Iraq And Go To Afghanistan? ... War Is Expensive Too ... Your Generation Ought To Be Thinking About Whether We Should Be Better Neighbors Out In Other Countries So That They Have A Different Vision Of Us." (Gregg Herrington, "Senator Asks Students To Ponder," The (Vancouver, WA) Columbian, 12/19/02)
    Helping muslim people might have stopped 9/11 but after it happened, all bets are off. We will go back to helping people when we get the people responsible for 9/11.





    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    --Sen. John Kerry (D-MA): "(W)ar On Terror Is Far Less Of A Military Operation And Far More Of An Intelligence-Gathering, Law-Enforcement Operation." (The Iowa Brown & Black Coalition Presidential Forum, Des Moines, IA, 1/11/04)
    He is correct






    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    -- Kerry: "(W)hat We've Learned Is That The War On Terror Is Much More Of An Intelligence Operation And A Law Enforcement Operation." (NPR's "All Things Considered," 3/19/03)
    Again correct.
    Last edited by NRG; 06/25/2005 at 11:01 AM.
  17.    #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    Please don't show your ignorance.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Please don't show your ignorance.
    Out of all the comments, quotes, opinions, and information in 98 posts spaning 3 pages, you take exception to a joke? I find that amusing.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 06/25/2005 at 06:07 PM.
  19.    #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Out of all the comments, quotes, opinions, and information in 98 posts spaning 3 pages, you take exception to a joke? I find that amusing.
    I have a real sore spot for misuse of the term "jihad".
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I have a real sore spot for misuse of the term "jihad".
    And any fair point made against you, too....hehe

    "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
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