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  1. #141  
    You can't have a war on terrorism.

    What'd I just say, it's about police work, gather intelligence, investigate, and arrest when a crime has been committed. Hopefully BEFORE a loss of life crime. But this is not an idealogically glabal conflict of "us" versus Muslims.
  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Do you feel it is bad to after terrorist groups where they set up camp?
    I don't. Afghanistan was a good idea well executed. There was also a lot of international support and understanding. Not only 213 American died there to date, also 16 Germans soldiers and 2 French, among others. As far as Iraq is concerned... well, we've gone through that before. I guess there is simply no connection between Iraq and Afghanistan.
    Last edited by clulup; 07/08/2005 at 04:35 PM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  3. #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ... I guess there is simply no connection between Iraq and Afghanistan.
    Oh don't worry. The drinkers of the kool-aid are still trying to pull one out of their collective ***.
  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Oh don't worry. The drinkers of the kool-aid are still trying to pull one out of their collective ***.
    Nice example of keeping an open mind in a complex debate.

    I listen to your opinions and if I don't understand them, I sincerely ask you more about it. I have even agreed with you when you have taken the time to explain them.

    Are you so closed minded that you cannot possibly comprehend there just might be some validity to someone's point of view, even though Howard Dean didn't say it?

    I also think it pretty interesting (or possibly enlightening) that I just posted a potentially huge flaw in Bush's War on Terror and you come back with a comment like this!

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    You can't have a war on terrorism.

    What'd I just say, it's about police work, gather intelligence, investigate, and arrest when a crime has been committed. Hopefully BEFORE a loss of life crime. But this is not an idealogically glabal conflict of "us" versus Muslims.
    You seem to be wanting to put words in my mouth to argue a point I have never made. I have NEVER said it was us vs muslim war. I think most realistic people realize it is exteme minority groups who are doing it. I do not see the US attacking or targeting every Muslim walking down the street. We are only targetting those who have have associated themselves with terrorist organizations, no matter what nationality or religious preference they claim to hold...be it muslim or christain...Iranian or British...if they are part of an terrorist group, then they are fair game. I just posted yesterday in response to the London bombing:

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I share my concern, love, and prayers for those who have to bare the burden of these murderous thugs that result to some of the lowest forms of evil with the disguise of a holy mission. I have several close Muslim friends and I am familiar with the general teachings of their faith, and these extemely minority groups bastardize the faith, ignoring everything that speaks against their actions and twist the others into a vague mission statement to add the appearance of a cause supported their actions under the disguise of Islam.
    I agree that it would be unrealistic view to say that the War on Terror is going to eliminate terrorism. But I am not one to sit back and Hope that we can find them at home to arrest them before they attack us again, while giving extra freedom from not hunting them so they can plan their next attack at their leisure. But a war on Terror can disrupt their recruiting methods, severely limit their training opportunities and locations of training camps, greatly reduce the the ease of funding and transferring monies, make leadership positions a high risk profession with high turn over, disrupt their lines of communication or at least limit and slow it down to decrease the chance of being intercepted, can make traveling a higher risk venture that will require a great deal more planning and maybe some luck, make more challenging to transfer and keep weapons, and force the leaders into hiding limiting their ability to move around freely.

    All of this would, and I believe has, been a major factor in reducing major terrorist attacks on our soil.

    I do feel it is better to do everything in our power to reduce their capabilities PRIOR to major attacks with proactive pressure added on the terrorist than a reactive policy of trying to catch them after several hundred or thousand of innocent civilians have been killed.

    Given these goals, yes I feel as a whole and with all things considered, that we are winning in the war of terror.

    In fact I just heard on the radio that a poll taken today after the London bombing, that 69% of Americans feel that we are still winning the war on terror. Only 12% felt that were not.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/09/2005 at 05:17 AM.
  5.    #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Oh don't worry. The drinkers of the kool-aid are still trying to pull one out of their collective ***.
    Congrats, that is your 100th post with the word "kool-aid" in it.
  6.    #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    You can't have a war on terrorism.

    What'd I just say, it's about police work, gather intelligence, investigate, and arrest when a crime has been committed. Hopefully BEFORE a loss of life crime. But this is not an idealogically glabal conflict of "us" versus Muslims.
    I'm not so sure the police work and gathering evidence will get the bad guy. Well the bad guys are now back in Pakistan or Iraq planning the next attack. The bobbie in England doesn't have jurisdiction in the mid-east. You must be kidding if you don't think the Muslim extremists don't think it's us vs them. They cut the heads off of humans. They blow up children on bikes. It is us vs the Muslims. And I mean the muscums of the Muslim religion. The religious leaders of the Muslim religion and leaders of the Mideast will have to stand up to these thugs, not only us and a few other countries with backbones.
  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    You can't have a war on terrorism.

    What'd I just say, it's about police work, gather intelligence, investigate, and arrest when a crime has been committed. Hopefully BEFORE a loss of life crime. But this is not an idealogically glabal conflict of "us" versus Muslims.
    And it is EXACTLY THAT mentality that has brought us to where we are. Investigations while our embassys were bombed. Indictments when our ships are attacked. Jail sentences for the first WTC bombers. Cruise missile strikes timed to strike when the target building is empty. Incompetent impotence.

    Rove's words ring even more true. The Democrats are through as a national party.
  8. #148  
    "Investigate when a crime is committed". Unfortunately that "crime" was cooking off a .5kt nuke in downtown NYC, but I'm sure that the FBI investigation would result in indictments.
  9. #149  
    DA,when did you become a fan of the Patriot Act? "...gather intelligence, investigate"...before a crime is committed!?!?!
  10. NRG
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    #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    \However, terrorists usually use the bombings and violence in lieu of having political power. It then becomes a cycle because the US and other countries dont want to recognize the terrorists acts. Then this in turn drives terrorists because that is the only avenue of 'change' (if you want to call it that) which they can perform. It just goes round and round.
    WOW!! One of the best thought out answers I have heard in A LONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG while. So how do we address it?
  11. NRG
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    #151  
    HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!! !!!11111 The retardedness that runs deep in this thread is mind boggling!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!! Contridiction runs VERRRRRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYY DEEEEEEEEEEEPPPPPPPPPPPP in this thread, I got hiccups just trying to digest it. I mean are some of you trying to hold some of our past presidents responsible for giving Saddam WMD?
    Last edited by NRG; 07/09/2005 at 10:05 AM.
  12. #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    You must be kidding if you don't think the Muslim extremists don't think it's us vs them. They cut the heads off of humans. They blow up children on bikes. It is us vs the Muslims. And I mean the muscums of the Muslim religion.
    There are two perspectives of the Us Vs Them in this war:

    Our view: It is us against Terrorist Organizations, no matter what nationality and religious flavor....though Muslim factions seem to dominate the majority of the major threats. We do not target civilians.

    Their view: INFEDILS....if you do not believe in their warped perspective, then you must die. Your wife must die. Your child must die. We will grab your hair and slowly saw off your head. We will bomb a bus with infidels. If you are not us, then you are Infedils and must die. Oh, did I mention it is EVERYONE against us.

    "Democracy is based on the principle that the people are the source of all authority, including the legislative [authority]," said the speaker, who identified himself as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, head of the al-Qaida affiliate in Iraq, "in other words, the legislator who must be obeyed in a democracy is man, and not Allah. That means that the one who is worshiped and obeyed and deified, from the point of view of legislating and prohibiting, is man, the created, and not Allah. That is the very essence of heresy and polytheism and error, as it contradicts the bases of the faith [of Islam] and monotheism, and because it makes the weak, ignorant man Allah's partner in His most central divine prerogative..."

    (Naturally, people like Zarqawi want to be the ones who tell you what their god wants you to do. )

    "We have declared a fierce war on this evil principle of democracy and those who follow this wrong ideology," al-Qaida rants. "Anyone who tries to help set up this system is part of it."

    The speaker said candidates running in the Jan. 30 elections in Iraq are "demi-idols" and those who vote for them "are infidels."

    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    The religious leaders of the Muslim religion and leaders of the Mideast will have to stand up to these thugs, not only us and a few other countries with backbones.
    I fully agree and stated this in other forums several times over. The Muslim religious leaders in every country need to stand against this. Because IMHO, if you don't speak against someone who is claiming to speak for you and in behalf of your religion then you are quietly accepting his statements to represent you. The governments need to stand against these movements within their own borders.

    If someone of my faith was claiming it was justified and expected to kill innocent people because they will not get baptized and accept our beliefs....and especially if they were actually backing up that preaching with really killing thousands of people...you had bet I would be vocal and finding any means possible to counter that threat.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/09/2005 at 01:46 PM.
  13. #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The retatardedness that runs deep in this thread is mind boggling!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!! Contridiction runs VERRRRRRRRR RRRRYYY YYYYYYYYYY DEEEEE EEEEEEPPPPPPP PPPPP in this thread, I got hiccups just trying to digest it. I mean are some of you trying to hold some of our past presidents responsible for giving Saddam WMD?
    Could you possibly edit your post and put a break or too in your !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so that page can fit back the proper width again. It makes it hard to read. Thanks.

    Edit: Thanks....I forgot I quoted you so then mine was doing the same. All back to normal again.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/09/2005 at 01:41 PM.
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Their view: INFEDILS....if you do not believe in their warped perspective, then you must die. Your wife must die. Your child must die. We will grab your hair and slowly saw off your head. We will bomb a bus with infidels. If you are not us, then you are Infedils and must die. Oh, did I mention it is EVERYONE against us.
    Sorry, but that is not true. Osama bin Laden's and Al Qaida's goal is not to kill everybody who "does not believe in their warped perspective". It is not their primary target to kill infidels. Their primary target is

    (A) To make the US troops leave the holy land of Mecca and Medina (Saudi Arabia) - that is how it started

    (B) To push back influence on the Muslim world of the US and the West in general

    (C) Maybe also to fight "Israeli occupation of Palestine", but that is not a prime target of Al Qaida either.

    Of course there is a religious background, but it's not "let's kill all infidels because they are infidels".
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  15. NRG
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    #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Sorry, but that is not true. Osama bin Laden's and Al Qaida's goal is not to kill everybody who "does not believe in their warped perspective". It is not their primary target to kill infidels. Their primary target is

    (A) To make the US troops leave the holy land of Mecca and Medina (Saudi Arabia) - that is how it started

    (B) To push back influence on the Muslim world of the US and the West in general

    (C) Maybe also to fight "Israeli occupation of Palestine", but that is not a prime target of Al Qaida either.

    Of course there is a religious background, but it's not "let's kill all infidels because they are infidels".
    No, No, No They hate us because our freedom.
  16. #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Sorry, but that is not true. Osama bin Laden's and Al Qaida's goal is not to kill everybody who "does not believe in their warped perspective". It is not their primary target to kill infidels.
    I was being a little over sarcastic, but yes there are factions where that is the truth. Here is the official goals of the organization:

    Goal is to unite Muslims to fight the United States as a means of defeating Israel, overthrowing regimes it deems "non-Is-lamic," and expelling Westerners and non-Muslims from Muslim countries. Eventual goal would be establishment of a pan-Islamic caliphate throughout the world. Issued statement in February 1998 under the banner of "The World Islamic Front for Jihad Against the Jews and Crusaders" saying it was the duty of all Muslims to kill US citizens, civilian and military, and their allies everywhere. Merged with al-Jihad (Egyptian Islamic Jihad) in June 2001, renaming itself "Qa’idat al-Jihad." Merged with Abu Mus’ab al-Zarqawi’s organization in Iraq in late 2004, with al-Zarqawi’s group changing its name to "Qa’idat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn" (al-Qa’ida in the Land of the Two Rivers).
    http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/qaida.htm
    TERRORIST ORGANISATIONS
    al-Qa'ida (Al-Qaeda)
    Other Names
    al Qaeda
    Al-Qaida
    "the Base"
    the Islamic Army
    the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
    the Islamic Army for the Liberation of the Holy Places
    the Usama Bin Laden Network
    the Usama Bin Laden Organization
    Islamic Salvation Foundation
    The Group for the Preservation of the Holy Sites
    http://www.terrorismfiles.org/organi.../al_qaida.html
    Osama Bin Laden Quotes:

    On his methods:
    "You cannot defeat the heretic with this book alone," bin Laden has said, referring to the Koran. "You have to show them the fist." (Quoted in The Washington Post, Sept. 18, 2001.)

    On Americans:
    "The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim." (From "Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders," 23 February 1998)

    To the Palestinians:
    "We give you the good news that the forces of Islam are coming and the forces of Yemen will continue in the name of God." (From a training video that circulated in the Middle East after the bombing of the USS Cole in October 2000.)

    On weapons of mass destruction:
    "If I seek to acquire such weapons, this is a religious duty," he said. "How we use them is up to us." (Quoted by a Pakistani news agency in 1998.)
    IDEOLOGY

    The ideology of Al-Qa'ida is rather simple and straightforward: Cleansing of the Muslim countries from corrupt and secular leadership, and fight against the powers that threaten Muslim states and the holy places of Islam. The foreign and dangerous powers are principally USA and Israel, USA for interfering in numerous fields in the Muslim world politically and military; Israel for occupying Palestine. The main opponents among the leaderships of the Muslim countries are Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Algeria.
    The ideology has been defined in 3 goals:
    Radicalize existing Islamic groups and create Islamic groups where none exist.
    Advocate destruction of the United States, which is seen as the chief obstacle to reform in Muslim societies.
    Support Muslim fighters in Afghanistan, Algeria, Bosnia, Chechnya, Eritera, Kosova, Pakistan, Somalia, Tajikistan, Philippines and Yemen.
    http://history1900s.about.com/gi/dyn....o%2Fqaida.htm
    Why did bin Laden declare a “fatwah,” or religious decree, against the United States?
    U.S. intelligence officials believe bin Laden began to turn against the United States in the mid-1980s — a time when he still took aid and training from the CIA, which was then helping bin Laden and other Islamic groups fight the Soviet Army in Afghanistan. The CIA funneled its aid through the Pakistani secret service, the ISI, to various cells in Afghanistan, one of them known as the MAK. In 1984, bin Laden broke with the MAK and formed a separate, more radical splinter group that espoused a harsh, fundamentalist version of Islam that was dedicated to the liberation of Islamic nations from any foreign influences, from Israel to the United States to the Soviet Union. Particularly infuriating to him is America’s coziness with the Saudi Royal family since the Gulf War. But bin Laden’s first public “fatwah” came only after the Gulf War. Specifically, he railed against the presence of American and European troops on the soil of the Arabian peninsula, site of Islam’s holiest cities, Mecca and Medina. Since then, U.S. intelligence officials say, bin Laden has been behind an unprecedented campaign of attacks on U.S., European, Israeli, Russian and other interests around the planet. In 1998, he broadened his “fatwah” to specifically include civilian targets:

    The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies — civilians and military — is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Asqa Mosque [in Jerusalem] and the holy mosque [in Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, “and with the pagans all together as they fight you all together” and “fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God.”

    It adds, “We with God’s help call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God’s order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan’s U.S. troops and the devil’s supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.”
    http://history1900s.about.com/gi/dyn...s%2F627355.asp
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/09/2005 at 01:45 PM.
  17. #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    I have no doubt that our troops will make Iraq a better place than it was, and I agree with the president that they should stay course and finish the job before the come back home. And I pray that my brother-in-law (in the Rangers) and my two friends in the Marines (already on the their 2nd tour!) come home safe and sound.
    I found this interesting.....In the middle of a speech from Hillary Clinton slamming Pres Bush, she did make a very interesting comment to back up your point of view:

    She said the United States should remain in Iraq until peace can be maintained by the Iraqi people, saying the mission was part of the "long struggle against terrorism" by the U.S.

    "The threat of terrorism is as close as our daily commute," said Clinton, adding that people around the world admired the "famous resilience" of the British in the wake of last week's terrorist attacks.
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162099,00.html
  18. #158  
    now that we're in Iraq we have no choice but to finish the job. But I do wish that we could have made the world a safer place by first catching Osama, and then going after the known WMDs in Pakistan and N Korea.

    It would be nice, for a change, to have our soldiers actually be welcomed with open arms after a liberation, as in Europe during WWII, instead of being shot in the back, as in Vietnam and now Iraq *sigh*
    Palm m505 -> Treo600 (GSM ATT) -> Treo650 (Cingular) -> BB8700g -> BB Pearl
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  19. #159  
    Massive weapons cache seized in Afghanistan

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...n_x.htm?csp=15

    KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — Thousands of rockets, mortars and anti-aircraft ammunition have been seized in central Afghanistan in the largest cache of militant weapons discovered in months, a government spokesman said Sunday.
    The arms were to be used to subvert crucial legislative elections on Sept. 18, Defense Ministry spokesman Gen. Mohammed Saher Azimi said.

    The raid in Ghazni province's Khogyani district Saturday netted some 2,000 surface-to-surface rockets, 3,000 mortar rounds, 500 artillery shells and 100 boxes of anti-aircraft bullets, he said.

    "The enemy planned to use them to sabotage the elections," Azimi said. "This was a very important operation to prevent the killing of civilians."

    He declined to give any other details about the find, including whether the Taliban were suspected to have stockpiled the cache or whether anyone had been arrested.

    Afghan officials have warned that the Taliban and al-Qaeda have launched a joint campaign to disrupt the September elections — the next key step toward democracy after a quarter century of war. Since March, a major upsurge in fighting has left more than 800 people dead, more than half of them suspected insurgents, according to U.S. and Afghan officials.
  20. #160  


    Afghan, Coalition Forces Find Weapons, Detain Enemy Fighters

    http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Aug2...0803_2318.html

    WASHINGTON, Aug. 3, 2005 – Afghan and coalition forces discovered four weapons caches during combat operations this week, one of which was found southwest of Orgun-E in Paktika province after a brief firefight with enemy combatants Aug. 1, military officials in Kabul reported today.
    During the fighting, Afghan National Police wounded one enemy combatant and detained two others.

    According to military reports, enemy combatants fired on Afghan forces and fled into a nearby compound. Afghan National Police officers returned fire, wounding one of the attackers.

    The wounded individual was taken to Kandahar Air Base for treatment and questioning. Afghan police then searched the compound and discovered material used for making improvised explosive devices, hand grenades, numerous parts of rocket-propelled grenades, and thousands of rounds of machine gun and AK-47 ammunition. The weapons were transported to a nearby base for destruction.

    Military officials reported three more weapons caches were discovered by coalition forces in southern and eastern Afghanistan Aug. 2. The first was discovered near Bamian and consisted of 60 rocket-propelled grenades, 17 anti-tank missiles, and 600 rounds of anti-aircraft-gun ammunition.

    Another cache found near Kabul contained 20 hand grenades, an anti-personnel mine, a mortar round, and materials to make improvised explosive devices. Explosive ordnance disposal personnel at the scene destroyed the contents of the cache.

    A third cache near Kandahar consisted of a large amount of fertilizer, which can be used to make bombs, and plastic explosives.
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