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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    For the most part. My Countrymen are of greater importance to me, than those of another Country.
    Agreed. But what does killing innocent (at least some) people do for the memory of the people who died in 9/11?

    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Also you will note that despite the destruction that we level against Afghanistan or Iraq, we go in and help rebuild. I don't recall Bin Laden or Abu Musab Zarqawi coming over and cleaning out the rubble of the WTC....I may be wrong though, if you know of this, please share.
    Nope. You got me there.

    Two issues though:

    1. I think the people that do survive this war in Iraq would rather not be killed than have their country be rebuilt after their death (I could be wrong though..it happens quite a bit.)

    2. What do the thousands of people who have died in the war in Iraq have to do with Bin Laden or Zarqawi? Since we couldnt get these two, then others should take their place?

    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    You're ex-military, so am I. You know about Rules of Engagement, it's not like we're a roving band of thugs just popping off people as we please.
    Agreed there. I am surprised that it doesnt happen more often. We put these guys in incredibly difficult situations with fractions of seconds to react and put them under microscopes. Its a tough business over there.
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  2. #82  
    Dammit t2, I'm NOT supposed to get involved in these debates anymore

    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Agreed. But what does killing innocent (at least some) people do for the memory of the people who died in 9/11?
    Since I never said anything about killing innocent people to honor, or remember the 9/11 victims, I'm not quite sure I understand the question.


    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Two issues though:

    1. I think the people that do survive this war in Iraq would rather not be killed than have their country be rebuilt after their death (I could be wrong though..it happens quite a bit.)
    No, I think you're right. The point I'm making is, we do rebuild once we go in.
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    2. What do the thousands of people who have died in the war in Iraq have to do with Bin Laden or Zarqawi? Since we couldnt get these two, then others should take their place?
    No, I only used bin Laden and Zarqawi since they are the "Leaders" of the other side. You don't see them flying in aid to the families of 9/11 in bin Ladens case, or in Zarqawi's case, forget the US, how about rebuilding the land you so love? Do you think either of those two would rebuild Iraq if we left?
    Last edited by Insertion; 06/23/2005 at 08:20 PM. Reason: thanx for t2 for pointing out my error!
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  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Dammit t2, I'm supposed to get involved in these debates anymore
    I think you meant "Im NOT..." You cant help it...plus I told you before that I don't want you to stop simply because you think people wont be swayed one way or another. People are listening

    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Since I never said anything about killing innocent people to honor, or remember the 9/11 victims, I'm not quite sure I understand the question.
    That is why I asked you about priorities...someone else mentioned the # of causalties in Iraq and you point to the 9/11 victims in response. My question then is why?

    I agree that (for the most part) we should put our people first. The 9/11 victims are already gone...we cant bring them back so why say they are they priorities over the mounting casualties in Iraq?? Do you mean that we should be more protective about our people than their people? If yes, then I concur.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    No, I only used bin Laden and Zarqawi since they are the "Leaders" of the other side. You don't see them flying in aid to the families of 9/11 in bin Ladens case, or in Zarqawi's case, forget the US, how about rebuilding the land you so love? Do you think either of those two would rebuild Iraq if we left?
    No your right. But this seems to give more reasoning to the argument that we are attacking the wrong place. Since those two people will not rebuild Iraq and probably don't care one bit about its citizens, then we do we mount up the casualties especially when they really arent being held to pay the price?
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  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I think you meant "Im NOT..." You cant help it...plus I told you before that I don't want you to stop simply because you think people wont be swayed one way or another. People are listening

    That is why I asked you about priorities...someone else mentioned the # of causalties in Iraq and you point to the 9/11 victims in response. My question then is why?
    Seemed like a fair post to me. I see your (not you personally) innocent list, and raise you one of my own.
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I agree that (for the most part) we should put our people first. The 9/11 victims are already gone...we cant bring them back so why say they are they priorities over the mounting casualties in Iraq?? Do you mean that we should be more protective about our people than their people? If yes, then I concur.
    Remember the 9/11 victims. Remember we are at war against Terrorism. We can debate the reasons we went into Iraq. But there is no debating that now, it is becoming the proving ground for Jihadist in the Muslim world. The reason casualties are mounting now is because of these fanatics, probably a majority of which may not even be Iraqi.

    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    No your right. But this seems to give more reasoning to the argument that we are attacking the wrong place. Since those two people will not rebuild Iraq and probably don't care one bit about its citizens, then we do we mount up the casualties especially when they really arent being held to pay the price?
    We are attacking Iraq at this point, because we're trying to stabalize the country. Although, it's not really attacking as I see it. Again, the Extremists want a fight, so a fight is what they get.
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  5. #85  
    I am curious if anyone knows statistics on the death rate during the war (25k in two years) vs the average death rate under Sadams rule for a two year period in so called peaceful times
  6. NRG
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    #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by RICHINMJ
    I am curious if anyone knows statistics on the death rate during the war (25k in two years) vs the average death rate under Sadams rule for a two year period in so called peaceful times
    Including Iraqi deaths in this war and the Iran-Iraq war
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    The fact that 2 of my friends deaths from the WTC attack along with the thousands of others gives us the right to slaughter innocent people in the name of freedom? If our priorities are here in the US, why have our troops in a foreign country slaughtering and being slaughtered? Why are we making martyrs out of our soldiers and more for the terrorists elsewhere?
  8. #88  
    Specifically Iraqi deaths at hte hands of the resident dictator
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by Frenzytom
    The fact that 2 of my friends deaths from the WTC attack along with the thousands of others gives us the right to slaughter innocent people in the name of freedom? If our priorities are here in the US, why have our troops in a foreign country slaughtering and being slaughtered? Why are we making martyrs out of our soldiers and more for the terrorists elsewhere?
    You're right. Let's just turn the other cheek.
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  10. #90  
    NRG, bring back the Injun...that chick of your is making me cross-eyed.
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  11. #91  
    Bring back whatever. I made a comment about that on another thread. My eyesight ain't so good and my brain can't stop trying to put that in focus.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by RICHINMJ
    Bring back whatever. I made a comment about that on another thread. My eyesight ain't so good and my brain can't stop trying to put that in focus.
    I actually like it.
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  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I actually like it.
    She might be pretty...but everytime I see it, I feel like we're having another earthquake.
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  14. #94  
    I'll admit its cool but it keeps pulling my eyes toward it.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    She might be pretty...but everytime I see it, I feel like we're having another earthquake.
    LOL
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  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Once again you continue to confuse your OPINION with FACT.
    Please help me out: I wrote "Personally, I don't think so. I think it is more likely that the WMD story was used as an excuse for invading Iraq."

    What more can I do declare a statement of mine as opinion? Please tell me how I can make it more clear that something is my opinion.

    Thank you in advance!
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Please help me out: I wrote "Personally, I don't think so. I think it is more likely that the WMD story was used as an excuse for invading Iraq."

    What more can I do declare a statement of mine as opinion? Please tell me how I can make it more clear that something is my opinion.

    Thank you in advance!
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    The question remains whether it was really total, glaring incompetence which led to the claimed 100% certainty that Saddam still had WMDs. Personally, I don't think so. I think it is more likely that the WMD story was used as an excuse for invading Iraq. The insinuated link between Saddam and islamistic terrorism including 9/11 was always only an excuse, that was clear from the start.
    The first part comes off as opinion. However, the last sentence, particularly "that was clear from the start" would seem to be beyond an opinion and more matter of fact.
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  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    The first part comes off as opinion. However, the last sentence, particularly "that was clear from the start" would seem to be beyond an opinion and more matter of fact.
    That is not a fact? (Assuming "from the start" means a few days after 9/11) There is this ecxellent collection of quotes, posted by NRG here. Here just a few examples:

    Richard A. Clarke: "I expected to go back to a round of meetings [after September 11] examining what the next attacks could be, what our vulnerabilities were, what we could do about them in the short term. Instead, I walked into a series of discussions about Iraq... I realized with almost a sharp physical pain that Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz were going to try to take advantage of this national tragedy to promote their agenda about Iraq...By the afternoon on Wednesday [after Sept. 11], Secretary Rumsfeld was talking about broadening the objectives of our response and "getting Iraq."

    "On September 12th, I left the video conferencing center and there, wandering alone around the situation room, was the president. He looked like he wanted something to do. He grabbed a few of us and closed the door to the conference room. "Look," he told us, "I know you have a lot to do and all, but I want you, as soon as you can, to go back over everything, everything. See if Saddam did this. See if he's linked in any way."
    "I was once again taken aback, incredulous, and it showed. "But, Mr. President, Al Qaeda did this."
    "I know, I know, but - see if Saddam was involved. Just look. I want to know any shred--"

    It seems that by September 12 it was clear that it was Al Qaeda and not Saddam.

    You may say that Clarke lied and that the quotes above don't mean anything. But look at the facts: none of the 19 highjackers had been Iraqi's, 15 were from Saudi-Arabia, where Bin Laden comes from. Was there ever anything that pointed to Saddam as the culprit, according to you? According to you, why did a majority of Americans wrongly believe for long that Saddam was behind 9/11? Because they invented that themselves, or because the Bush administration insinuated it constantly?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  19. NRG
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    #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    You may say that Clarke lied and that the quotes above don't mean anything. But look at the facts: none of the 19 highjackers had been Iraqi's, 15 were from Saudi-Arabia, where Bin Laden comes from. Was there ever anything that pointed to Saddam as the culprit, according to you? According to you, why did a majority of Americans wrongly believe for long that Saddam was behind 9/11? Because they invented that themselves, or because the Bush administration insinuated it constantly?
    Also, don't forget Clarke's story, is supported over three (3) accounts by three different people. Saying Clarke lied however, has NO corroborating evidence, as far as I know.
  20. NRG
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    #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by RICHINMJ
    I'll admit its cool but it keeps pulling my eyes toward it.
    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyMan
    She might be pretty...but everytime I see it, I feel like we're having another earthquake.
    Quote Originally Posted by RICHINMJ
    Bring back whatever. I made a comment about that on another thread. My eyesight ain't so good and my brain can't stop trying to put that in focus.
    Does it really bother you guys this much? How bout this?

    I will bust out a new one.

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