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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Do we know what the cost will be if we don't continue?
    Well Im not sure but just because the costs might be high doesnt seem to support the argument one bit on why we got to this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Manhattan disappearing under a mushroom cloud? Attacks on our schools by dozens of Jihadis?
    Wow...this type of scare tactic has been used before.

    Remember, no one is saying they are against fighting terrorism, its how and where we fight it that concerns me.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    The nature of the war we're involved in does not allow for your litmus tests and finish lines. We can only do things to enhance our security, there are no guarantees.
    I agree but our goals and objectives could be broken up into segments...i.e. Our goal in Iraq is to wipe out these particular terrorist cells, these groups to whatever % we indicate (like 99). I would be willing to bet that the Joint Chiefs do have goals and objectives...the problem is that they arent shared at least to some extent so that the public can understand and stand the course through all of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    In Iraq we will have achieved that goal when a stable government is in place, and the butchers in Syria and Iran can no longer send their henchmen to create mayhem within that country.
    That kind of goal may never be accomplished...no amount of military power is going to stop one person from blowing themselves up with a bomb killing others.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    And here's a question...what would YOU have had us done in the wake of not just 9/11, but of the first WTC bombing, the Embassy bombing, the Cole, etc, etc.?
    That my friend would be difficult to do in just one day, let alone the fact that I don't have that kind of experience.

    However, I hope you arent trying to argue a point that if I can't come up with a better plan then Bush's plan is now valid.
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  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    The Jihadis have to defend their movement in their neighborhood. Our success in Iraq is forcing them to concentrate there.
    I posted a link about this from USA Today. I agree we have made progress but to some extent we have empowered them as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Are you aware that one of the reasons the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor is because they read our press, and didn't think we had the stomach for a fight?
    Yeah but this assumes that the publics stomach and the President's stomach is the same. Bush has ignored public opinion on this (much to his credit in many ways) so relying on that logic has cost the Jihadis (and other groups who support terrorism).

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    The Jihadi has been laboring under that same impression for a long, long time. They acted on it, time and again, and each time we reinforced that belief with impotent at best, incompetent at worst, acts. Imagine what the reaction would have been had we not launched such a global (remember, we're fighting this war EVERYWHERE, at once) and powerful response to this most heinous attack.
    I agree that its good to act and act decisively, I am just concerned about the why and how.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Back later...I actually have to do some of the work they're paying me for!
    You and I both.
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  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    No. Don't be obtuse. I'm saying that our limp response EMBOLDENED them.
    Definition from dictionary for obtuse... lacking in insight or discernment

    If you are saying that it emboldened them, then say that. Dont list all the attacks, then our response and simply say "9/11". I had to discern from your vague conclusion. (so no, I don't think I was obtuse ).

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    You seem to have a difficult time understanding that each tool at our disposal has its uses and limitations.
    What brought you to that conclusion? I actually think we don't use our domestic law enforcement enough (i.e. border control, searching cargo at terminals, etc.)

    It arguable that using the military operation for counter-terrorism is stretching its limitations. Speaking from the Marine Corps perspective, it has only been 'fairly' recently that we have gotten up to speed on MOUT and Close Quarters Combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Law enforcement does have a role within the confines of the US. Outside those borders it is a diplomatic, intelligence and ultimately a military game. We didn't use that last option, and our enemy thought us weak.
    Arguably we didnt use the 2nd option very well either
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  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Just read an article where the mujadeen heroes marked a group of kids on bicycles in Iraq to blow up. Several died and one remained screaming with one of his legs gone from the kneecap down. Sickening. More Iraqi's need to stand up to these thugs. If that happened here in the South, there would be Bubba law, with vigilantes everywhere.
    I have no doubt about that (or anywhere else in this country). I think the problem I have is understanding why they empower these thugs to abuse them the way they do?
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  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    We've already invaded Iraq, not much we can do about that now whether Saddam had something to do with 911 or not. Do you propose the US leave immediately?
    Im not saying leave now...that wouldnt be fair to the people of Iraq (and the surrounding nations).

    But we shouldnt skip over the question why we are there or how we got there or how long we should be there.
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  6.    #66  
    Disagree with you on all three points.

    How much longer should we talk about the question of why we are there? It's such political bs. It's scorched earth conversation. Democrats keep it as an issue as if the 2004 election is still going on. What more do you want to discuss?

    Regarding how long we should be there. Per Rumsfield (today) and I agree...

    "Timing in war is never predictable. There are never guarantees," Rumsfeld said. "Those who say we are losing this war are wrong. We are not."

    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    But we shouldnt skip over the question why we are there or how we got there or how long we should be there.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Disagree with you on all three points.
    Thats ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    How much longer should we talk about the question of why we are there? It's such political bs.
    It doesnt have to be (and I am not saying its not.) I am legitimatically concerned about why we are there and how long we will be there. I have no political agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    It's scorched earth conversation. Democrats keep it as an issue as if the 2004 election is still going on. What more do you want to discuss?
    I was asking it in the context of 1911's posts. We don't have to carry it on at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Regarding how long we should be there. Per Rumsfield (today) and I agree...

    "Timing in war is never predictable. There are never guarantees," Rumsfeld said. "Those who say we are losing this war are wrong. We are not."
    I am not looking for a guarantee or whether we are winning or losing (there is evidence, for the most part, that we are winning.)

    I just want to know what our goals/objectives are so I can get an idea when we can declare victory (for the second time ) and our men and women can come home.
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  8.    #68  
    t2, do you really have no idea what the goal is in Iraq?
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    t2, do you really have no idea what the goal is in Iraq?
    I have an idea but its not clear (I emphasize the the word clear because if its not clear, then we will find it difficult to determine success).

    1. Is it to 'free' Iraq?
    2. Eliminate all terrorist activity?
    3. Establish a democracy in Iraq? (not necessarily the same thing as 1)
    4. Eliminate a % of the known terrorists?
    5. Put in place a U.S. supported sympathetic government?
    6. Establish peace in the Middle East?
    7. Find WMD's?
    8. Improve international relations with all the ME countries?
    9. Capture Bin Laden?
    10. Bring economic development to Iraq?
    11. Keep the oil safe and flowing?
    12. Prevent Iraq (i.e. preemptive) from attacking the U.S.?

    It seems like I could go on and on...so Advance, what do you think is our goal in Iraq? (This isnt meant as an attack). If you can answer that, then also please tell me when will we accomplish it?

    (BTW-Disclaimer: I don't think its as easy as it sounds...probably because once you do state what our goal in Iraq is, then it seems a little odd when you compare what we have done at this point to ensure our success in reaching that goal).
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  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    t2, do you really have no idea what the goal is in Iraq?
    As 1911 has pointed out in several posts: Iraq is at the center of a region with prime strategic importance for the US (and others) due to the fact that a large proportion of present and (even more so future) oil and gas supplies come from there.

    I think it is a fair and realistic assumption that this is the main driving force behind the whole thing. Other factors also play a role of course, such as security for Israel, and maybe even terrorism and WMD, though the last two were totally invalid, as is obvious by now. I doubt it is the goal of the Bush administration to leave Iraq. As long as the killing (also of Americans) goes on, they have to stay because the country is too instable. Once the situation is more quiet, they have no reason to leave, unless the government and/or the people throw them out (which does seem quite likely). Did they leave Saudi-Arabia? Did they leave Kuwait after the war? Probably if those countries were democracies, they would have to leave, but the US are on the side of the dictators there (with a special friendship between the Bush family and the Saudi Royal dictators), so the troops can stay.

    The question remains whether it was really total, glaring incompetence which led to the claimed 100% certainty that Saddam still had WMDs. Personally, I don't think so. I think it is more likely that the WMD story was used as an excuse for invading Iraq. The insinuated link between Saddam and islamistic terrorism including 9/11 was always only an excuse, that was clear from the start.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    The question remains whether it was really total, glaring incompetence which led to the claimed 100% certainty that Saddam still had WMDs. Personally, I don't think so. I think it is more likely that the WMD story was used as an excuse for invading Iraq. The insinuated link between Saddam and islamistic terrorism including 9/11 was always only an excuse, that was clear from the start.
    Once again you continue to confuse your OPINION with FACT. Since you are in essence claiming the President of The United States Of America lied, show us this dossier of concrete evidence.
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  12. #72  



    CONCRETE EVIDENCE THERE ARE MANY FORMS OF WMD'S
  13. #73  
    If we are winners, here are the losers.

    http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by Frenzytom
    If we are winners, here are the losers.

    http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

    Priorities:

    http://www.september11victims.com/se...ctims_list.htm
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  15. #75  
    One smart monkey
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Once again you continue to confuse your OPINION with FACT. Since you are in essence claiming the President of The United States Of America lied, show us this dossier of concrete evidence.
    I guess this dossier of concrete evidence can be found in the same place where the POTUS found evidence for WMD??
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  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I havent seen that site before...thanks.

    Now on to a different note...you say priorities? What do you mean by this? That the victims of 9/11 should come first? Victims of other countries come second? Im not flaming, I want to understand.
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  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    not bad .... you kill one of ours, we kill ten of somebody else!
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  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I havent seen that site before...thanks.

    Now on to a different note...you say priorities? What do you mean by this? That the victims of 9/11 should come first? Victims of other countries come second? Im not flaming, I want to understand.
    For the most part. My Countrymen are of greater importance to me, than those of another Country. Also you will note that despite the destruction that we level against Afghanistan or Iraq, we go in and help rebuild. I don't recall Bin Laden or Abu Musab Zarqawi coming over and cleaning out the rubble of the WTC....I may be wrong though, if you know of this, please share.

    You're ex-military, so am I. You know about Rules of Engagement, it's not like we're a roving band of thugs just popping off people as we please.


    Quote Originally Posted by chillig35
    not bad .... you kill one of ours, we kill ten of somebody else!
    You would rather it be the other way around?
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  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    For the most part. My Countrymen are of greater importance to me, than those of another Country. Also you will note that despite the destruction that we level against Afghanistan or Iraq, we go in and help rebuild. I don't recall Bin Laden or Abu Musab Zarqawi coming over and cleaning out the rubble of the WTC....I may be wrong though, if you know of this, please share.
    You're right - we did the same thing after dropping an A-bomb on Japan and rebuilt it, and completely eliminated the threat of japanese military aggresion.


    You would rather it be the other way around?
    Not really - but I would rather have us go after the few remaining a*holes (holed up in our "trusted ally" Pakistan) who were responsible for 911 instead of killing 25000 innocent bystanders.
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