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  1. #161  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I cant speak for Howard Dean but...(OK, I can but bear with me.)

    Is he really painting the picture of the GOP makeup or is he just pointing it out to everyone else? Is what he saying NOT true? (Without passing judgment on it)

    His plan (if I had to guess) is get people aware, then associate that message with one of "The GOP doesnt really represent you"....to "The Dems do so jump aboard."
    So...since I'm not White, I should become a Democrat? Once again, the Party of "Tolerence" seems to be preaching Us vs. Them...

    I don't join a political party based on skin tone....sorry Mr. Dean.
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  2. #162  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    So...since I'm not White, I should become a Democrat? Once again, the Party of "Tolerence" seems to be preaching Us vs. Them...

    I don't join a political party based on skin tone....sorry Mr. Dean.
    I think you may be over analyzing it...he is simply saying..."Do you really think you're represented? If not, then look to this party."

    Speaking of US vs. THEM.....Take the same argument and insert the words "people of faith"...thats exactly what the GOP did all throughout the Presidential election.

    I don't know if YOU were ok with it then, but at least 50% of Americans were ok with that despite a war that doesnt appear to have an ending, a floundering economy, and an incredibly huge deficit.
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  3. #163  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I think you may be over analyzing it...he is simply saying..."Do you really think you're represented? If not, then look to this party."

    Speaking of US vs. THEM.....Take the same argument and insert the words "people of faith"...thats exactly what the GOP did all throughout the Presidential election.

    I don't know if YOU were ok with it then, but at least 50% of Americans were ok with that despite a war that doesnt appear to have an ending, a floundering economy, and an incredibly huge deficit.
    Certainly both sides play that game. But one seems to proclaim themselves as being the Tolerant Ones, which is far from true. I have a Gay friend who is Republican. Do you know the crap he gets from the "Tolerant Democrat" Gays he encounters? You'd be amazed.

    As far as people of faith, I think you know my opinion, if not:
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...4&postcount=72

    But I'm not exiting one Party because I am of Little Faith, to join another because I'm not a Good Ol' Boy. There are several issues I weigh. The Republicans (of the two Party system) are the most in step with my opinions. Certainly the traditional GOP views such as Defense, Taxes, Individual Freedom and Liberties...
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  4.    #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    This is a church is it not? Complete with crosses, prayers on the walls, various art works reflecting religious beliefs?
    That the facility is a church is clear. Focus, for a moment, on the concept of "endorsement". What aspect of the transaction constitutes the borrower's endorsement of the lender's ideology?
  5. #165  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    It's a lot more simple than that. The GOP pushed morals because it helped them to get votes - plain and simple. You can try to characterize it as "sanctimonious", "dividing voters", "drawing attention away" from other issues, etc., but you are missing the point. It's politics, and both sides did what they could to win. Bush won.
    I agree with heberman...ya gotta believe that Barbara Bush just rolls her eyes when both of her sons say some of the stuff they do. Its about the vote, and who gets it. The Ds say we are Pro Choice, thus we are moral. The Rs say we are Pro Life, thus we are moral. Choose your morality, but whatever you choose isnt any better then the other.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  6. #166  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Certainly both sides play that game.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    But one seems to proclaim themselves as being the Tolerant Ones, which is far from true.
    That may be true based on your perspective but the GOP also touted compassionate conservatism which also seems like an oxymoron when gay rights are concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I have a Gay friend who is Republican. Do you know the crap he gets from the "Tolerant Democrat" Gays he encounters? You'd be amazed.
    I have heard it. Its unfortunate because it usually occurs when we vote based on a single issue. (and I am not saying you cant vote that way...I am just glad when people get out there and vote.)

    I take some heat for my voting because as a Christian, its expected you will always vote Pro-Life. When you don't, people frame it like I am against God (Im not that simple I guess )

    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    As far as people of faith, I think you know my opinion, if not:
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...4&postcount=72

    But I'm not exiting one Party because I am of Little Faith, to join another because I'm not a Good Ol' Boy. There are several issues I weigh.
    Which is something I can appreciate...the fact that you look at multiple issues when you decide to vote for a candidate.
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  7. #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    yes that's seems to be the GOP line. Ignore the reasons behind the lack of party diversity and pretend that Dean has declared war on whites and christians.
    For it's apparant lack of diversity, the Bush White House seems to have more "people of color" in positions of power then any other administration.....ever.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  8. #168  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I cant speak for Howard Dean but...(OK, I can but bear with me.)
    That's OK...he can speak for daThomas
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  9. #169  
    Claire: you're not suggesting that because Bush has the most diverse administration ever that it is representative of the GOP? ;-)

    BTW-its a good thing (and something I thought he carried over from Tx - or Barbara told him to do it ;-)
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  10. #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Claire: you're not suggesting that because Bush has the most diverse administration ever that it is representative of the GOP?
    I just find it interesting that this pack of "racists" would be able to do something like that. While the Ds, have through the years, counted on Black Americans to elect white candidates that dont represent them.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  11. #171  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    For it's apparant lack of diversity, the Bush White House seems to have more "people of color" in positions of power then any other administration.....ever.

    yes I agree, I commend Bush admin on that. One can only hope for equality and equal representation for all americans someday.

    By the way, Claire, I know sometimes I may have stepped on your toes, I am sorry if I offended. good luck to you in your journalism career. keep up the enthusiasm and spirit that you show on this forum with every part of your life and you will go far.

    NRC, DA Thomas, clulup I have been proud to be brothers in arms with you, sticking up for the rights of vulnerable and powerless people in our society who may not sport treos or vaja cases on their hips.

    Claire, insertion, 1911, advance the man, and of course woof, you guys have shown me what it is like to look at life with conservative eyes, and I respect the sincerity of your beliefs, even though they will never be mine.

    I will miss everyone, best wishes and God bless you all.
  12. #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I just find it interesting that this pack of "racists" would be able to do something like that.
    You still seem to link the GOP with Bush's cabinet. Is Dean making that connection that way?

    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    While the Ds, have through the years, counted on Black Americans to elect white candidates that dont represent them.
    Its arguable but Black Americans have traditionally been 'more' (I know its subjective) represented in the Dem party versus the Reps. Its only natural that the Dems would rely on their votes. The mistake is to count on it without earning it.
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  13. NRG
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    #173  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    yes I agree, I commend Bush admin on that. One can only hope for equality and equal representation for all americans someday.

    By the way, Claire, I know sometimes I may have stepped on your toes, I am sorry if I offended. good luck to you in your journalism career. keep up the enthusiasm and spirit that you show on this forum with every part of your life and you will go far.

    NRC, DA Thomas, clulup I have been proud to be brothers in arms with you, sticking up for the rights of vulnerable and powerless people in our society who may not sport treos or vaja cases on their hips.

    Claire, insertion, 1911, advance the man, and of course woof, you guys have shown me what it is like to look at life with conservative eyes, and I respect the sincerity of your beliefs, even though they will never be mine.

    I will miss everyone, best wishes and God bless you all.
    Where are you going?
  14. #174  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    yes I agree, I commend Bush admin on that. One can only hope for equality and equal representation for all americans someday.

    By the way, Claire, I know sometimes I may have stepped on your toes, I am sorry if I offended. good luck to you in your journalism career. keep up the enthusiasm and spirit that you show on this forum with every part of your life and you will go far.

    NRC, DA Thomas, clulup I have been proud to be brothers in arms with you, sticking up for the rights of vulnerable and powerless people in our society who may not sport treos or vaja cases on their hips.

    Claire, insertion, 1911, advance the man, and of course woof, you guys have shown me what it is like to look at life with conservative eyes, and I respect the sincerity of your beliefs, even though they will never be mine.

    I will miss everyone, best wishes and God bless you all.

    Cell, take a break for a couple of weeks, man, and come back.
  15. #175  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I will miss everyone, best wishes and God bless you all.
    Thank you for your comments, but where you going?? Back to prison??
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  16. #176  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Its arguable but Black Americans have traditionally been 'more' (I know its subjective) represented in the Dem party versus the Reps. Its only natural that the Dems would rely on their votes. The mistake is to count on it without earning it.
    Traditionally? Wow, Malcolm X's "Ballot Or The Bullet" speech of 1964 wouldn't agree with that. George Wallace, Bull Connor, Al Gore, Sr.? LBJ didn't have the greatest track record, though the Civil Rights Act was passed under his watch, even though Democrat Senator Richard B. Russell gather 18 other Democrats to filibuster the bill, as well as co-authoring the Southern Manifesto, to counter Brown v. Board Of Education several years earlier.

    They have hardly been "traditionally more represented." Nor are they now in my opinion. True they get the votes, but how have they improved the quality of life for Blacks? Because you offer handouts, and silly quotas for colleges, this is bringing them up? You're basically saying you're too incompetent to function on your own, so let us do it for you.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

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  17. #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I think you may be over analyzing it...he is simply saying..."Do you really think you're represented? If not, then look to this party."

    Speaking of US vs. THEM.....Take the same argument and insert the words "people of faith"...thats exactly what the GOP did all throughout the Presidential election.

    I don't know if YOU were ok with it then, but at least 50% of Americans were ok with that despite a war that doesnt appear to have an ending, a floundering economy, and an incredibly huge deficit.
    It doesn't matter what he meant. He's a politian speaking to the masses. The masses only care about what they hear...most people don't think rationally about things like this...that's just the way we voters are...we hear what we want.

    White, black, or purple, his comment just sends the wrong message. He has been and will be quoted out of context on this statement for a long time. In my mind this makes him a bad politician. Generally speaking, politicians normally can't afford to make 'dividing' statements like that.
  18. NRG
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    #178  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    even though Democrat Senator Richard B. Russell gather 18 other Democrats to filibuster the bill, as well as co-authoring the Southern Manifesto, to counter Brown v. Board Of Education several years earlier.
    Aren't most of these guys Dixiecrats?

    1948 presidential election
    The States' Rights Democratic Party was a short-lived splinter group that broke from the Democratic Party in 1948. The States' Rights Democratic Party opposed racial integration and wanted to retain Jim Crow laws and racial segregation. The party slogan was "Segregation Forever!" Members of the States' Rights Democratic Party, were often known as Dixiecrats.

    The party was formed after thirty-five delegates from Mississippi and Alabama walked out of the 1948 Democratic National Convention. Even before the convention started, the Southern delegates were upset by President Harry S. Truman's executive order to racially integrate the armed forces. The walkout was prompted by a controversial speech by Senator Hubert Humphrey of Minnesota urging the party to adopt an anti-segregationist plank in the platform.

    After President Truman's endorsement of the civil rights plank, Strom Thurmond, governor of South Carolina, helped organize the walkout delegates into a separate party, whose platform was ostensibly concerned with states' rights. The Dixiecrats held their convention in Birmingham, Alabama, where they nominated Thurmond for president and Fielding L. Wright, governor of Mississippi, for vice president. Dixiecrat leaders worked to have Thurmond-Wright declared the "official" Democratic Party ticket in Southern states. They succeeded only in Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, and South Carolina; in other states, they were forced to run as a third-party ticket. These included Arkansas, whose governor-elect, Sid McMath, a young prosecutor and decorated World War II Marine veteran, vigorously supported Truman in speeches across the region, much to the consternation of the sitting governor, Ben Laney, an ardent Thurmond supporter. Laney later used McMath's pro-Truman stance against him during his 1950 re-election bid which McMath won handily. Efforts to paint other Truman loyalists as "turncoats" generally failed, although the seeds of discontent were planted which in years to come took their toll on Southern moderates, among them Congressman Brooks Hays of the Second (central) District of Arkansas, whose efforts at reconciliation during the 1957 Little Rock School Crisis made him vulnerable to defeat in 1958 by a segregationist surrogate fielded by forces loyal to then-Governor Orval Faubus, whose justification for using the national guard to bar entry to black pupils in defiance of a federal court order echoed much of the 1948 Dixiecrat platform.

    On election day 1948, the Thurmond-Wright ticket carried the previously solid Democratic states of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and South Carolina, receiving 1,169,021 popular votes and 39 electoral votes. The split in the Democratic party in the 1948 election was seen as virtually guaranteeing a victory by the Republican nominee, Thomas E. Dewey of New York, yet Truman won re-election in an upset.

    [edit]
    Subsequent Elections
    The Dixiecrat Party largely dissolved after the 1948 election. Senators Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms switched parties and joined the Republicans. Serveral others remained in the Democratic Party and went on to become prominent Democratic Senators. These former Dixiecrats, turned Senators, went on to serve multiple terms in the service of their respective states. These long careers in the Senate elevated their seniority putting them in positions of power and prestige. Today, one original member of the Dixiecrat Party remains in public service as a Senator, Robert C. Byrd of West Virginia.

    Regardless of the power struggle within the Democratic Party, concerning segregation policy, the south remained a strongly Democratic voting block for local, state and federal Congressional elections. This was not true of Presidential elections.

    In the 1960s, the courting of white Southern Democratic voters was the basis of the "southern strategy" of the Republican Party's Presidential Campaigns. Republican Presidential Candidate Barry Goldwater carried the Deep South in 1964, despite losing in a landslide in the rest of the nation to President Lyndon B Johnson of Texas. The only Democratic presidential candidate after 1956 to solidly carry the Deep South was President Jimmy Carter in the 1976 election.


    Read more here
    Last edited by NRG; 06/21/2005 at 11:17 AM.
  19. #179  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    For the record, "tolerance" is not a higher plane "ideal" that should be sought unilaterally. There is no inherent value in tolerating any and everything without careful consideration of the impacts and implicatons of the thing. Some people wear their lack of discernment as a tolerant "badge of honor", only to subsequently wonder why conditions around them are deterioriating.
    I love that statement! I haven't heard you blow but I have to question if that was the intended media for you...
  20. #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Traditionally? Wow, Malcolm X's "Ballot Or The Bullet" speech of 1964 wouldn't agree with that. George Wallace, Bull Connor, Al Gore, Sr.? LBJ didn't have the greatest track record, though the Civil Rights Act was passed under his watch, even though Democrat Senator Richard B. Russell gather 18 other Democrats to filibuster the bill, as well as co-authoring the Southern Manifesto, to counter Brown v. Board Of Education several years earlier.

    They have hardly been "traditionally more represented." Nor are they now in my opinion. True they get the votes, but how have they improved the quality of life for Blacks? Because you offer handouts, and silly quotas for colleges, this is bringing them up? You're basically saying you're too incompetent to function on your own, so let us do it for you.
    I tried to respond to this via wap this morning but I had a call come in and everything I thumboarded was gone... (that is a separate issue.)

    The word 'traditional' is very broad...I meant it in reference to the last 20 years or so. Most of the people you quoted go back way before my time.

    Quality of life has improved for Blacks (I agree not ALL of it is through the Dems effort). You mention handouts...that term is a little vague but I assume it to be food stamps, unemployment benefits, health care, job training programs, etc. I think those things have helped Black people (and everyone else) get themselves together when times get tough. Do people abuse it...sure, but that doesnt nullify the fact that it does help people and traditionally, the GOP has been against those types of 'handouts'.

    You mention silly quotas...do you not agree that affirmative action has given blacks and other ethnic groups more opportunities for higher education (and employment?) In a perfect world, everyone would be judged on merit alone...but its not a perfect world. Is affirmative action perfect...absolutely not... but it appears to be the only viable solution at this point (if you have a better idea...lets start another thread). Traditionally, Dems have supported affirmative action and the GOP hasn't.

    There are other issues you didnt mention that the Dems support (and the GOP doesnt) that have been important issues to people of different ethnicity or gender. Things like minimum wage, how the tax code is structured (tax cuts), etc...

    Finally just I had to use this...."You're basically saying you're too incompetent to function on your own, so let us do it for you." <--This is the traditional line of the GOP. 'Nothing can stop you if you just pull your two boot straps up and put the work in.' This assumes that the ONLY thing holding you back is yourself. That is simply not what the real world is all about. The real world is a tough world (which I think you would agree.) People dont all have the same skills and intelligence (which I think you would also agree). If that is the case, then some people are not going to be successful (however you define that) without a little bit of help. Just my .02
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