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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Democrats think it's evil for conservatives to use the power of government to impose their vision of social morality. Yet they smilingly endorse hijacking the power of government to forcibly impose their own vision of morality. WOW!
    Part of what you say is true but...

    The democrats believe that our morality shouldnt be faith based. That way, we stay away from establishment clause violations (see Im still on topic ).

    Republicans: social morality based on faith.

    Democrats: social morality based not on faith.

    (I personally believe in faith, but I don't want it pushed onto others in the form of legistlation).
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  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    It seems to me that in the last political campaign, some party was promoting themselves as having more moral values? Was it the democrats?
    I think your boy Dean is trying a role reversal. "Democratic chairman Howard Dean told party leaders yesterday that casting traditionally liberal issues in moral terms is a key to breaking Republicans' eight-year hold on the White House."

    In case you didnt know. Moral is "in", and the Ds want in.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  3. #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I may have made things worse (because I flipped the example around).

    In DA's and your argument, we are talking about the school choosing to do the service in one particular church. The school (a government entity because of where it gets it funding) arguably could be viewed as endorsing the church simply because it chose that church. (However, the endorsement argument would apply to any other church that it chose to do the ceremony).

    The only way I can see the school not violating the establishment clause is if they utilized more than one church and simultaneously broadcast the event...then its arguable that the school is not endorsing one church over another.

    IMHO
    and here lies the crux of the difference - I don't see it as an endorsement sheerly because the facility is used.
  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    In case you didnt know. Moral is "in", and the Ds want in.
    Got that right...but its morals (not based on faith).

    Problem is that, for the most part, polls indicate that at least a simple majority believe in God. Dems don't want to alienate all of those by saying "We have morals but they arent based on faith".

    I think the above is a much better approach than letting the Rep's just frame the issue as "We got morals, they don't."
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  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I think your boy Dean is trying a role reversal. "Democratic chairman Howard Dean told party leaders yesterday that casting traditionally liberal issues in moral terms is a key to breaking Republicans' eight-year hold on the White House."

    In case you didnt know. Moral is "in", and the Ds want in.

    There are moral arguments which can be made for both democrat and republican based issues. I just get wary of people who try to mix religion and politics together and when one group tries to portray the image that they are more moral that the other. That is when strong emotions come into play that overshadow rationality.

    A totally separate issue is that we need to protect freedom of religion for all Americans. Even though there is nothing which interfere's with this freedom in the Montgomery case, it is an important issue.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 06/20/2005 at 05:51 PM.
  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    and here lies the crux of the difference - I don't see it as an endorsement sheerly because the facility is used.
    No problem. If you're not swayed by my argument, I don't take it personally.

    Remember my post on #93: Hugo Black said:

    Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or remain away from church against his will. Arguably, if the only place I can go to see my child graduate is the church, then it may qualify as force and probably qualifies as influence.

    No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. (This assumes that the school is paying for the facility in any way-this is much more debatable).
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  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or remain away from church against his will. Arguably, if the only place I can go to see my child graduate is the church, then it may qualify as force and probably qualifies as influence.

    No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. (This assumes that the school is paying for the facility in any way-this is much more debatable).
    sorry, still not buying it (as an aside, you'd think I was a religious person, actually I'm agnostic).
    Last edited by treo2die4; 06/20/2005 at 06:24 PM.
  8. #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    sorry, still not buying it (as an aside, you'd think I was a religous person, actually I'm agnostic).
    Of course your agnostic...you're from OR! 10 times more liberal than CA...bunch of tree huggin'... <---This is a JOKE

    I can appreciate your point of view even more when you can argue for something that you don't really believe. Makes it more persuasive (since you don't have the same vested interest).
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  9. #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Got that right...but its morals (not based on faith).

    Problem is that, for the most part, polls indicate that at least a simple majority believe in God. Dems don't want to alienate all of those by saying "We have morals but they arent based on faith".

    I think the above is a much better approach than letting the Rep's just frame the issue as "We got morals, they don't."

    That's the point that needs to be clear. I would hope that 'morality' is never 'out'. It's just that in the last election, the GOP sanctimoniously framed certain issues like the very ambiguous "family values" (i would hope most candidates had those, regardless of political affiliation!) in effort to divide voters and draw attention away from issues that should have decided the election, ie the economy, the war and health care.
  10. #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by atnight
    That's the point that needs to be clear. I would hope that 'morality' is never 'out'. It's just that in the last election, the GOP sanctimoniously framed certain issues like the very ambiguous "family values" (i would hope most candidates had those, regardless of political affiliation!) in effort to divide voters and draw attention away from issues that should have decided the election, ie the economy, the war and health care.
    It's a lot more simple than that. The GOP pushed morals because it helped them to get votes - plain and simple. You can try to characterize it as "sanctimonious", "dividing voters", "drawing attention away" from other issues, etc., but you are missing the point. It's politics, and both sides did what they could to win. Bush won.
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  11. #151  
    And now the Dems have a guy who tries to disparage "white christians". Stupid.
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  12. #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    And now the Dems have a guy who tries to disparage "white christians". Stupid.
    Its stupid of the GOP to get all bent out of shape by the remark because everyone knows it is true - they ARE mostly white and mostly christian (much more than the dems). The more you argue, the more you seem embarrassed by it and the more you let Dean set the tenor of the conversation. My advice for the GOP, move on to other issues, this one is not worth your time arguing about.
  13. #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Its stupid of the GOP to get all bent out of shape by the remark because everyone knows it is true - they ARE mostly white and mostly christian (much more than the dems). The more you argue, the more you seem embarrassed by it and the more you let Dean set the tenor of the conversation. My advice for the GOP, move on to other issues, this one is not worth your time arguing about.
    No, it would seem the opposite, as if being White and Christian are bad, therefore Dean says it.
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  14. #154  
    Much like things get labeled as "racist" if said by a White. Example, Immigration="Racist."
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  15. #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by atnight
    That's the point that needs to be clear. I would hope that 'morality' is never 'out'. It's just that in the last election, the GOP sanctimoniously framed certain issues like the very ambiguous "family values" (i would hope most candidates had those, regardless of political affiliation!) in effort to divide voters and draw attention away from issues that should have decided the election, ie the economy, the war and health care.
    Thats a good point but lets not give the GOP that much credit. The Dems LET them frame the moral question the way they did. The Dems could have done a much better job. (They will have to in the next election cycle in order to be successful).
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  16. #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    No, it would seem the opposite, as if being White and Christian are bad, therefore Dean says it.
    yes that's seems to be the GOP line. Ignore the reasons behind the lack of party diversity and pretend that Dean has declared war on whites and christians.
  17. #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    yes that's seems to be the GOP line. Ignore the reasons behind the lack of party diversity and pretend that Dean has declared war on whites and christians.
    Wasn't it the Dems that forbade Pro-Lifers from speaking in the '92 convention? Very tolerant and diverse...has this changed recently?
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  18. #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    It's a lot more simple than that. The GOP pushed morals because it helped them to get votes - plain and simple. You can try to characterize it as "sanctimonious", "dividing voters", "drawing attention away" from other issues, etc., but you are missing the point. It's politics, and both sides did what they could to win. Bush won.

    you can paraphrase it however you want to. The GOP did do all the things I characterized them doing. I wasn't trying to bring back an old argument, or any exasperation. We live on the same planet. I know who won the last U.S. election. I just didn't see the Dems manipulating the issues or co-opting universal values as their own in the same way like you said- just to win. Otherwise I would have mentioned something about both sides.

    Just the same, perhaps Dems should better establish how they participate in faith, as their embracing of diversity has propelled their media image into a somewhat secular one.
  19. #159  
    And why should Democrats care what the party makeup of the GOP is? What's Deans point? Other than to paint some pseudo-racist picture...
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  20. #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    And why should Democrats care what the party makeup of the GOP is? What's Deans point? Other than to paint some pseudo-racist picture...
    I cant speak for Howard Dean but...(OK, I can but bear with me.)

    Is he really painting the picture of the GOP makeup or is he just pointing it out to everyone else? Is what he saying NOT true? (Without passing judgment on it)

    His plan (if I had to guess) is get people aware, then associate that message with one of "The GOP doesnt really represent you"....to "The Dems do so jump aboard."

    It doesnt take a lot to see what he is doing (assuming Im not full of cr*p)
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