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  1. #101  
    The church in question has been used for years because it is the only facility in the area that can accomodate large families, is air conditioned, and has wheel chair access. Other venues require issing a maximum of five "tickets" to view the graduation. So that leaves out grandparents, family friends, etc.

    This topic has been heating up talk radio out here the past week or so. Just another example of Montgomery County lunacy.
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I hate to see you go away not getting my point as shown by the last comment. Again, it is your ABSOLUTE RIGHT to say "god (or whatever) be with you." On the same token, it is not alright for the gov't to actively endorse your god or someone elses god or the non-existence of god. The gov't should in no way be in any god business OTHER THAN to protect the individual's right to their expresssion of their religious beliefs.
    Well, I'm a gov't employee, on the clock, paid by your tax dollars, using the network and hardware resources provided by the government. Therefore, any preference of religion I would show would be a direct violation of the interpretation of the 1st Amendment rights, and as such, would oppress you and/or violate your rights. I had to include a generalized statement as to not offend, and it appears I may have slightly offended by trying not to offend!
  3. #103  
    I shall you triangle you for sure Mr. G. Host!
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I shall you triangle you for sure Mr. G. Host!
    Should you ever commit such an act, I will take off my T-Shirt, tie it behind my head, and instantly be transformed into a fierce Shirt-Ninja, the likes of which none of you shall see.

    (Sorry any Ninja's, and or. Buddhists, if I offended you. If you feel your rights were violated, please click [here])

  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by evilghost
    Punches in the face for all the people wearing virtual ******'s and soiled panties over their heads.
    I guess 11 year olds can use Treos too.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 06/20/2005 at 03:44 PM.
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    On the same token, it is not alright for the gov't to actively endorse your god or someone elses god or the non-existence of god. The gov't should in no way be in any god business OTHER THAN to protect the individual's right to their expresssion of their religious beliefs.
    Agreed. I think this may be getting somewhere now...
    Let's turn this around for a moment....
    Why do so many congregations meet in public (govn't) schools for services on Sunday? I am okay with school study groups, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, youth groups, etc using the schools....that's where our property taxes go. Therefore, my taxes are paying (indirectly or directly) for the building of a Christian church that isn't my own. I don't like this widely practised use.

    To restate this...Is it okay for churches to use schools, but not ok for schools to use churches? Why the double standard?
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by evilghost
    Well, I'm a gov't employee, on the clock, paid by your tax dollars, using the network and hardware resources provided by the government. Therefore, any preference of religion I would show would be a direct violation of the interpretation of the 1st Amendment rights, and as such, would oppress you and/or violate your rights. I had to include a generalized statement as to not offend, and it appears I may have slightly offended by trying not to offend!
    Again, it doesn't matter if your personal religious expression bothers someone else. Tough tittes for them, the First Amendment protects you and the ACLU would go to bat for you.

    See the difference? PERSONAL religious expression (even by gov't employees) PROTECTED! Gov't endorsement of religion, a NO-NO!
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by evilghost
    Should you ever commit such an act, I will take off my T-Shirt, tie it behind my head, and instantly be transformed into a fierce Shirt-Ninja, the likes of which none of you shall see.

    (Sorry any Ninja's, and or. Buddhists, if I offended you. If you feel your rights were violated, please click [here])
    I sir am a Ninja, and am fully offended. As soon as my meditation time is over, I shall deal with you once and for all!

    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    Agreed. I think this may be getting somewhere now...
    Let's turn this around for a moment....
    Why do so many congregations meet in public (govn't) schools for services on Sunday? I am okay with school study groups, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, youth groups, etc using the schools....that's where our property taxes go. Therefore, my taxes are paying (indirectly or directly) for the building of a Christian church that isn't my own. I don't like this widely practised use.

    To restate this...Is it okay for churches to use schools, but not ok for schools to use churches? Why the double standard?
    Actually, church organizations can use shools OUTSIDE of normal school periods and functios.
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    It's been quite well established in plenty of judicial kicking around.

    Why you are incapable of seeing how this protects EVERYONE'S rights is beyond me.
    It's one thing to protect against a gov started and run church (i.e. the C of E). To protect the freedom to worship as we individually see fit. But you would have to admit that people have taken this to the PC extreme.

    For example, many have turned this into a denial that religion has played a very important, both for good and ill, part of history are and spending HUGE amounts of money to wipe them from our history books and classes because someone, somewhere might be offended that someone 200 yrs ago belonged to a different religion than they did and that they did what they did back then because of the influence.

    Many have turned this movement into an attempt to purge Christianity from our society and culture. To wipe out any and all hints that it existed or that is important today. It is the principles (not doctrine) that our nation was founded on. The forefathers set this religious protection for us while still relaying on the principles it teaches to establish a gov that was unique in the history of the world at that time. Perfect example is when the ACLU sued the county in California because it's county shield had a very small cross on it that represented the original founders of the county when they set up a mission there, which was the founding establishment of the county. It is a historical fact that a mission started that county, why actively, through millions of dollars and a tremendous draw on our judicial resources, would someone be offended by the this historical fact, try to make people deny their opportunity to remember their local history, and state that ONLY because the founders were religious they are should be ignored and forgotten. What if trappers established that same county? Would the ACLU have sued to take a beaver off the county seal in rememberance of the profession of their local founders?

    Christianity is just as much part of our society as is Jewish, Muslim, Jazz, Rock-n-Roll, etc...



    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    I sense this "we are surrounded .. we are being persecuted" complex from the majority Christians .. which I find laughable.
    I was in no way subscribing to "we are surrounded .. we are being persecuted complex", but simply stating the stands that many of these orgs choose to fight and choose to support (or at least ignore) other situations that are exactly the same but deal with a non-Christian religion. Simply review their history of litigations. I even saw an interview with a high ranting ACLU member who was asked why they judcialy challenged a prayer offered by a christian minister in a graduation, but approved of Muslim students being able to be excused from class to pray throughout the normal day. He completely ignored the question and focused on the fact that the prayer of the graduation was by a christian minister and that cannot be allowed because it would impose and offend none christain believers or atheist.

    Another example is when the ACLU challenged a county for having a christmas try on county grounds....but totally ignored that the county made a honest and very good effort to represent every other major religion in the county by having a display for jews, muslims, etc... And yet they ONLY challenged the Christmas tree based on the grounds it has christain roots and is thus offensive.

    I am not talking about persecution, I am simply reviewing on their court cases and statements. You can fill in the blank with anything. If an organization targeted ANY group of any religion such a disportionate amount of resources than any other, that is always a cause for concern.
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Actually, church organizations can use shools OUTSIDE of normal school periods and functios.
    Not in several California and other states communities where the ACLU and other organizations, like Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, have sued local gov and shool board for allowing churches to use school ground for services on non school days, like Sunday.
  12. #112  
    The poor Montgomery kids and their ruined graduation, I bet they are crying in their rooms right now. I am so glad that they have people like us who can advocate on their behalf!
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Not in several California and other states communities where the ACLU and other organizations, like Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, have sued local gov and shool board for allowing churches to use school ground for services on non school days, like Sunday.
    Um yea, like services um no. Was referring to bible study groups etc.
  14. #114  
    When is the ACLU going to make the City of Los Angeles change their name? I'm offended to be associated with angels.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    It's one thing to protect against a gov started and run church (i.e. the C of E). To protect the freedom to worship as we individually see fit. But you would have to admit that people have taken this to the PC extreme.

    For example, many have turned this into a denial that religion has played a very important, both for good and ill, part of history are and spending HUGE amounts of money to wipe them from our history books and classes because someone, somewhere might be offended that someone 200 yrs ago belonged to a different religion than they did and that they did what they did back then because of the influence.

    Many have turned this movement into an attempt to purge Christianity from our society and culture. To wipe out any and all hints that it existed or that is important today. It is the principles (not doctrine) that our nation was founded on. The forefathers set this religious protection for us while still relaying on the principles it teaches to establish a gov that was unique in the history of the world at that time. Perfect example is when the ACLU sued the county in California because it's county shield had a very small cross on it that represented the original founders of the county when they set up a mission there, which was the founding establishment of the county. It is a historical fact that a mission started that county, why actively, through millions of dollars and a tremendous draw on our judicial resources, would someone be offended by the this historical fact, try to make people deny their opportunity to remember their local history, and state that ONLY because the founders were religious they are should be ignored and forgotten. What if trappers established that same county? Would the ACLU have sued to take a beaver off the county seal in rememberance of the profession of their local founders?

    Christianity is just as much part of our society as is Jewish, Muslim, Jazz, Rock-n-Roll, etc...
    To be honest with you, I see NO evidence of this. The religious right is attempting to frame any application of the First Amendment in the context you state above.
  16. #116  
    What about St. Louis??
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    The poor Montgomery kids and their ruined graduation, I bet they are crying in their rooms right now. I am so glad that they have people like us who can advocate on their behalf!
    The policy won't take effect until next year.

    This isn't about the kids so much as it is about their families. If each kid gets five tickets to the event, there's mom, dad, maybe a sibling. Then which set of grandparents? Who doesn't get to see this rite of passage?

    But I take the ACLU's point on this, which is why I'm looking forward to having them put a stop to voting in churches.
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    When is the ACLU going to make the City of Los Angeles change their name? I'm offended to be associated with angels.
    I would be offended to live in that decrepit car culture as well.
  19. #119  
    Santa Ana, Santa Cruz, San Francisco, etc
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Um yea, like services um no. Was referring to bible study groups etc.
    Actually the ACLU and other similiar organizations have gone to court for even the Boy Scouts to use school grounds stating they are a christain supporting org and cannot use school grounds.

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