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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    For the record, "tolerance" is not a higher plane "ideal" that should be sought unilaterally. There is no inherent value in tolerating any and everything without careful consideration of the impacts and implicatons of the thing.
    Isnt the inherent value in being tolerant equality?

    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    Some people wear their lack of discernment as a tolerant "badge of honor", only to subsequently wonder why conditions around them are deterioriating.
    I can definitely see how that happens in some cases but dont you at least admit that some things improve? (expression, understanding, etc.)
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  2. #62  
    Just wondering what the Hell some of you did during "As The Pope Turns" a month or two ago. All that coverage with those symbols everywhere...did you even get out of bed?
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  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    You are religious and extremely tolerant. Good for you. I don't think the rest of the majority will be so understanding if the ceremony was held in a mosque.

    Tyranny of the majority is very insidious .. it progresses in small harmless steps until the very questioning of such steps provokes a reaction.

    I think it is best to keep things as separate as possible. Makes life simple. Avoids arguments like this.
    Yes there would be some who would object to having it in a mosque....but it is funny to note that it would not be the same people how are so upset that it is in a Christian setting. That was one of the points I was hinting at. Many of the self proclaimed "religious freedom", "religious intolerance", or "Religion-State Seperatist" groups never speak up in the same situation when it is not christians or christianity in question. They are historically very targetted against christianity, almost to the point with with a single eye and purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Hypothetically (the SAME arguments apply here.. think about it): Would the families agree if the ceremony was held in the local temple/church/place-of-worship of Devil worshippers?
    I was just waiting to see how long the "Devil Worship" arguement would wake up to real it's "evil head".

    The big difference is that I think many would object to a place that endorses a figure that teaches to steal, kill, no respect for the wellfare of others, hate, etc.... Which is in stark contrast to the foundation of the constitution and to the moral climate of our culture....which no matter if you are religious or not is treat others with respect, don't demand human blood sacrifices in some of the sects, don't promote hatredl. It would be the same as holding it an convention center for the KKK.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 06/20/2005 at 02:19 PM.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by heberman
    Wow, way to mistakenly equate "Mormons" with non-Christian religions. You are misinformed on this issue. Even the real name of the church shows its Christ-foundation: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints."
    http://lds.org/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism

    It was those same (un-Christian?) "Mormons" who installed the 10 Commandments statues in front of various Utah courthouses, which statues were then attacked 1 by 1 by the ACLU as an unconstitutional endorsement of religion.
    Hey man, wasn't make a slam, but the Mormon belief system is drastically different than that of mainstream Christianity, and even Christianity at the time. Monogamy, Holy Trinity differences, the Book of Mormon, views of heaven/etc. Just because the organization is named that way does not mean that it's belief system is aligned with the others.
  5. #65  
    and the underwear...don't forget the holy underwear
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  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by evilghost
    Hey man, wasn't make a slam, but the Mormon belief system is drastically different than that of mainstream Christianity, and even Christianity at the time. Monogamy, Holy Trinity differences, the Book of Mormon, views of heaven/etc. Just because the organization is named that way does not mean that it's belief system is aligned with the others.
    OK, fair enough. There are lots of big differences. There are also lots of similarities too.
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  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    So in this particular case do you see the use of a Church for a non-religious ceremony to be an imposition of the Church's beliefs?
    It would be hard to answer without more information. (I can't help but hedge my bet )

    If I assume that it is the churches main meeting hall and it would have religious symbols, sayings, etc...then I see how that might indirectly or directly (based on point of view) impose on another (plus would any of the church employees be there in an official capacity...that might also add to the imposition).

    If this was a meeting hall for gatherings where typically no religious teachings were held (i.e. just a large meeting hall with any of the above), then I don't think it would be am imposition.
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  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by evilghost
    Can you give me a specific example, and/or, quote or is that an implicit inferred assumption based on your views of the text?
    "In his Notes on Virginia he stated, "The legislative powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."2 As a Deist, Jefferson believed that religion stemmed, not from reason, but from the affections, and reflected little more than inclinations of private citizens."
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    "In his Notes on Virginia he stated, "The legislative powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."2 As a Deist, Jefferson believed that religion stemmed, not from reason, but from the affections, and reflected little more than inclinations of private citizens."
    So by very definition of your argument, at what point in holding the graduation at a Church do the following events occur:

    1) Legs broken.
    2) Pockets picked.
    3) Injury to others

    Isn't the converse of the situation you're so adamantly auguring also in agreement with this quoted statement of yours? Don't throw emotional injury in there, because that's moot.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Just wondering what the Hell some of you did during "As The Pope Turns" a month or two ago. All that coverage with those symbols everywhere...did you even get out of bed?
    Well, I did watch a lot of it (its a pretty rare event when a Pope dies) even though I am not Catholic.

    However the difference between that situation and ours is essentially that the government doesnt own the tv stations (arguable ) and I don't have to watch it. (no imposition, no church state argument)

    Here, if the school chooses the forum and leaves no alternative to attend without going to that forum (don't ask me to figure out how that could happen) then it may be imposing.
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  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    It would be hard to answer without more information. (I can't help but hedge my bet )

    If I assume that it is the churches main meeting hall and it would have religious symbols, sayings, etc...then I see how that might indirectly or directly (based on point of view) impose on another (plus would any of the church employees be there in an official capacity...that might also add to the imposition).

    If this was a meeting hall for gatherings where typically no religious teachings were held (i.e. just a large meeting hall with any of the above), then I don't think it would be am imposition.
    Fair enough....what if the meeting were in the main meeting hall but any religious parafernalia were removed or covered?
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Well, I did watch a lot of it (its a pretty rare event when a Pope dies) even though I am not Catholic.

    However the difference between that situation and ours is essentially that the government doesnt own the tv stations (arguable ) and I don't have to watch it. (no imposition, no church state argument)

    Here, if the school chooses the forum and leaves no alternative to attend without going to that forum (don't ask me to figure out how that could happen) then it may be imposing.
    You're correct, however I think some use the Separation to mask their own intolerence.

    I'm not religious. Find the Bible to be a mythological novel, and Religious groups nothing more than cults. However, I don't crap my pants at the sight of the Ten Commandments on a building. I don't have a problem with GOD being on my money, or saying we are One Nation Under GOD, like some do.

    I guess I'm more tolerant than those who would preach (no pun intended) tolerence, as in Gay Rights, etc...
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  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Why can't we all just get along?

    ....oh ya...because I might be wearing Adidas in the presence of someone who works at Nike.

    or because I might be using a Palm Treo when I work at Motorola?
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by evilghost
    So by very definition of your argument, at what point in holding the graduation at a Church do the following events occur:

    1) Legs broken.
    2) Pockets picked.
    3) Injury to others

    Isn't the converse of the situation you're so adamantly auguring also in agreement with this quoted statement of yours? Don't throw emotional injury in there, because that's moot.
    The First Amendment does 2 things in regards to religion. First, it prohibits the endorssement of a religion by the gov't (the problem with the graduation location). Secondly, it protects YOUR right to religious expression of your choice from being infringed upon by the gov't or other organization.

    A simple yet beautiful plan.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    The First Amendment does 2 things in regards to religion. First, it prohibits the endorssement of a religion by the gov't (the problem with the graduation location). Secondly, it protects YOUR right to religious expression of your choice from being infringed upon by the gov't or other organization.

    A simple yet beautiful plan.
    Wrong

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    Keyword being law. No laws were made and no one was stifled. The actual amendment is quite clear, however, it's obviously been loosely applied and twisted, causing excessive chaffing of peoples panties.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Fair enough....what if the meeting were in the main meeting hall but any religious parafernalia were removed or covered?
    I think that it might be more of a workable arrangement then. You still will have 'stigma' of it being in a church (perception)...but I think (at least legally) if the school cant afford any other venue (and nothing they can afford is big enough) and the church is willing to do this for the community...it would probably fly.

    The school would most likely have to do a little PRPRPR $as$ $well$ $about$ $how$ $they$ $arent$ $affiliated$ $with$ $any$ $part$ $of$ $the$ $church$ $and$ $they$ $are$ $doing$ $this$ $so$ $ALL$ $parents$ $and$ $guests$ $can$ $attend$ ($for$ $the$ $kids$...)

    And, I wouldnt have anyone of the clergy there (at least not in an official capacity.)
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  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by evilghost
    Wrong

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    Keyword being law. No laws were made and no one was stifled. The actual amendment is quite clear, however, it's obviously been loosely applied and twisted, causing excessive chaffing of peoples panties.
    In the couple of centuries since written it has been applied to local policies including public school policies. The rule of thumb is if public tax dollars were paid towards it, then the First Amendment applies, INCLUDING letting John the Baptist peeps do their water immersion ceremony in publicy funded parks as is their right of PERSONAL religious expression.
  18. #78  
    I think the whole debate related to subjects such as this one have taken a bad turn.

    People take certain things way too seriously and really only care about themselves. History is being rewritten on a daily basis to try and please everyone which will never happen. There are schools right now being sued and debated on whether to teach religion as part of our history. Nooo we can't mention religion especially Christian religion in schools it might make the kids think *gasp* On the same token some religious institutions want the Wizard of Oz removed from libraries because of the Good Witch in it. But wait should Christians be forced to enter a library that has the Wizard of Oz in its catalog. Where does it end?

    I think I knew from the day I was born that I was an Atheist. I went to church when I was younger but never believed it.. it just made no sense to me. I do respect the peoples right to go to church though and respect their beliefs whatever it may be and if I am inconvenienced just a little from time to time I think I can live with it.
  19.    #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    ...Hypothetically (the SAME arguments apply here.. think about it): Would the families agree if the ceremony was held in the local temple/church/place-of-worship of Devil worshippers?

    Gasp!

    The majority effect is very much in play in this discussion....
    I very much appreciate this example, because it has challenged my "tolerance" levels (which in itself is humorous because I do not consider my self a "tolerant" person, at least not in the way the terms is tossed around these days). The "this is a secular nation we live in" side of me responded that the facilities owned by devil worshippers is subject to the same conditions I expressed for other places. The "not all religions are created equal" side of me said, they can have it there but count me out.

    Then the "greater is he that is in me" side of me said, why?

    Then I realized the relationship between "tolerance" and equality"
    You, the person, are of no greater or lesser value than me.
    Your ideas are of no greater or lesser value than my ideas
    Our behaviors, though, require analysis as to their implications and impact on society in determinig whether they will be tolerated.
  20. #80  
    If it were my child, they could hold graduation on the moon...I would be there. I would not waste my time, distracting from my child's accomplishments, by arguing the ceremony's venue...
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