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  1.    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by atnight
    ...If Christianity is so worried about losing its flock and encouraging a youthful membership, it needs to not cry foul every time its questionable role in a public venue is marginalized, and instead focus more on positive messages and positive role models in the community, respecting other faiths, and not imposing itself into political arenas so much....
    In this case, it would have to be that there are parents that are "worried" about losing their children to christianity. At best, the religious symbols might prompt a given young person to inquire of the parents the meaning of the symbols. It would be a great time to examine/reinforce whatever the parent has been teaching the child all along.

    The muslim could say, these people believe that Jesus is..... We don't hold that belief for these reasons... However, we do have some things in common, such as....

    The athiest could say, these people believe in a god, and that Jesus is....We don't hold that belief for these reasons... However, we do agree with some of the principles that they adopt, such as...

    The catholic christian could say, these people believe, as we do that Jesus is... However, there are differences in how we express that faith, such as...

    The protestant christian could say, these people believe what we believe, but their auditorium is much bigger than ours.

    Or, of course everybod could skip all that and simply say, I'm glad we were able to celebrate this occassion. Son/Daughter, I'm proud of you. Keep up the good work.
  2. #22  
    Shop excellent post.

    I especially like the their auditorium is bigger than ours.. just reminded me of an experience I had recently.
  3. #23  
    My high school graduation was held in a church and despite the large number of professed atheists and jews (we had almost no practicing christians and muslims) no one gave a damn because we were simply using the space as an area to hold a ceremony. Despite my strong dislike of religion in general I never once felt any discomfort, and frankly the church was rather beautiful and pleasant to be in. What's wrong with a little exposure, anyway?
  4. #24  
    Come on. Its pretty apparent. By having the ceromony in a place of a particular religions place of worship you're endorsing said religion by exposing people to it's symbols, writings, etc. There's no reason they can't have the ceremony outdoors.

    And yes, you can bet your *** if it were a mosque the majority of people would be freaking out.
  5.    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Come on. Its pretty apparent. By having the ceromony in a place of a particular religions place of worship you're endorsing said religion by exposing people to it's symbols, writings, etc.
    I thought sure there was going to be a smiley after this sentence. But, in its absence allow me to ask, is using the meeting hall of the knights of columbus an endorsement of their creed? Is using the Vet Admin lodge an endorsement of the military or of war? Is use of a stadium an endorsement of sports?
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    There's no reason they can't have the ceremony outdoors.
    This is certainly a viable option (graduates' grandparents notwithstanding). But indoor versus outdoor is a separate discussion point from separation versus non-exposure.
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas

    And yes, you can bet your *** if it were a mosque the majority of people would be freaking out.
    Perhaps. And, if so, the freaking out would be just as ridiculous.
  6. #26  
    If your rent a Knights of Columbus Hall -- are you endorsing their organization?

    If you rent a movie theater for your event -- are you endorsing that theater over all others?

    If you rent Spartan Stadium, are you endorsing that university over all others?

    Where do you draw the line on this slippery slope?
  7. #27  
    Hi Shop!

    (Must be twin sons of different mothers. Except, you are the more eloquent one.)

    Cheers, Perry.
  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Holden
    If your rent a Knights of Columbus Hall -- are you endorsing their organization?

    If you rent a movie theater for your event -- are you endorsing that theater over all others?

    If you rent Spartan Stadium, are you endorsing that university over all others?

    Where do you draw the line on this slippery slope?
    Perhaps the question, "when do you stop drawing new lines?" At first it was separation of church and state. Now, the standard being is proposed "is protection from exposure to church."

    Would an outdoor ceremony be an endorsement of Wicca?
  9. #29  
    Agreed.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    If you didnt have an opinion, and really dont care, why say anything. Shop wanted to start the thread and talk about it. You just wanna stifle opinions that differ from yours. Trollboy
    First, separation of church and state does not prohibit this kind of activity as a matter of law. Indeed, at my Montgomery county MD school, it works the other way around, and churches ROUTINELY hold services at the school on weekends. However, having said that, there are MANY people who feel uncomfortable in churches when used AS churches. Would people of faith have a problem with a mandatory (or virtually mandatory) public meeting in a room that had writings and teachings that were antithetical to their religous beleifes (e.g., "there is no G-d", or "Jesus was fake") Certainly, I have the right to have and express such beliefs -- and the school board would have a right to lease my facility for public events. Would you find this objectionable? What if the REASON the school board wanted to lease the church was for the express PURPOSE of exposing NON-BELIEVERS to the religious teachings? How would you ever know the true purpose? This is why many school boards go beyond the strict separation requirements in the Constitution (the free exercize and establishment clauses.) It may SEEM silly, until the shoe is on the other foot, and it is YOUR religious OX that is gored.

    My .02
  11. #31  
    I saw this guy walking down a PUBLIC STREET wearing a catholic-style cross around his neck. I've been exposed to religion !!! AAAAAHHAHAHAHHHHAHHHH!!
    Palm V-->Visor Deluxe-->Visor Prism-->Visorphone-->Treo 180-->Treo 600-->Treo 650 on Sprint-->Treo 700p-->Centro-->Diamond-->Pre-->HTC EVO 4g???!
  12. #32  
    Again,
    Taking anything to the nth degree, will pervert the original intent.
    and
    How far down a slippery slope do you want to draw a line?

    Giving the benefit of the doubt, accomodation, common sense, and respect to all fellow travelers on this hunk of rock is the line I stand on. . . .

    (And I am also well aware that there are 6 billion plus versions of this and reality on this rock.)

    Cheers, Perry.
  13. #33  
    More political correctness and catering to the one over the many.....ridiculous IMO
  14. #34  
    I have always found it ironic (and hypocritical) of groups like this to impose their beliefs (or lack of, which in these cases is the same difference) on those who believe differently because they (the 2 out of 25 minority) "might" be offended and think it is justice to impose their beliefs on others because they might be offended while in so doing offending the vast majority of the other population.....which offence is what they claim to be stopping in the first place.

    The other point of groups like this that get to me is when they attack the fact that a graduation is started with a prayer (and our district asked a different form of religion each year to offer the prayer to no show preference) with a vengeance and yet say it is okay for Muslim kids to be excused throughout the day in school to say their prayers.

    As Shop perfectly pointed out....What ever happened to culture diversity and appreciating it?

    What also gets me too is that they are currently trying to even change the history books in school to wipe out all reference that religion had a role in history and in the founding of our country. They are going to court to "CHANGE" history because it "might" offend them.
  15. #35  
    Sorry, but in spite of all the statements of tolerance in this thread, I have no doubt that IF a school system in, say Alabama, or Mississippi, or most of Texas, tried to hold a graduation ceremony in a Synagogue or a Mosque the good, charitable Christian folk there would raise holy hell.

    I don't think it's okay for the government to force members of any religion to enter the halls of another. And since this is the only way seniors at the school can attend graduation, it does amount to forced attendance.

    Oh, and, by the way, this isn't being held in some innocuous meeting room. It's being held in the main chapel (which seats 7,000 people!!), with the alter, a banner that says "Jesus is Lord," crosses, etc. And it's not as if this is the only facility avialable. The University of Maryland is close by, has at least two venues that will seat as many, and offers no issues with the establishment clause.

    Something else I find thought provoking: Montgomery County, MD has one of the largest concentrations of Jews, outside of the New York area, on the East Coast. There are several very large synagogues in the county. I wonder why the county isn't holding graduation in one of them? Maybe because the same Christian parents who screamed bloody murder over the county's sex education curriculum would have screamed about having graduation in a synagogue?

    Tolerance is a two edged sword. And, frankly, I find the Christian right to be exceptionally intolerant of any belief structure but their own, while demanding that society as a whole should be exceptionally tolerant of their beliefs.
    Last edited by meyerweb; 06/20/2005 at 12:39 PM. Reason: corrected a spelling error
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by cyberjust
    What if the REASON the school board wanted to lease the church was for the express PURPOSE of exposing NON-BELIEVERS to the religious teachings? How would you ever know the true purpose?
    Completely different animal IMO - if this were the true reason for using a particular facility, regardless of what they were trying to expose others to - it would not be acceptable.

    Don't think that is the case here however, though you probably have a better feel for it than I....
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    I thought sure there was going to be a smiley after this sentence. But, in its absence allow me to ask, is using the meeting hall of the knights of columbus an endorsement of their creed? Is using the Vet Admin lodge an endorsement of the military or of war? Is use of a stadium an endorsement of sports?This is certainly a viable option (graduates' grandparents notwithstanding). But indoor versus outdoor is a separate discussion point from separation versus non-exposure.Perhaps. And, if so, the freaking out would be just as ridiculous.
    The point is religion. The veteran's administration is not a religion. These separations are not in the Constitution to annoy you. They're there to protect your religious rights.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    The point is religion. The veteran's administration is not a religion. These separations are not in the Constitution to annoy you. They're there to protect your religious rights.
    IMO you take this separation agrument way too far. I don't believe the framers intended in any way to make it the elimination of Church and State that you so frequently advocate.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    Sorry, but in spite of all the statements of tolerance in this thread, I have no doubt that IF a school system in, say Alabama, or Mississippi, or most of Texas, tried to hold a graduation ceremony in a Synagogue or a Mosque the good, charitable Christian folk there would raise holy hell.

    I don't think it's okay for the government to force members of any religion to enter the halls of another. And since this is the only way seniors at the school can attend graduation, it does amount to forced attendance.

    Oh, and, by the way, this isn't being held in some innocuous meeting room. It's being held in the main chapel (which seats 7,000 people!!), with the alter, a banner that says "Jesus is Lord," crosses, etc. And it's not as if this is the only facility avialable. The University of Maryland is close by, has at least two venues that will seat as many, and offers no issues with the establishment clause.

    Something else I find thought provoking: Montgomery County, MD has one of the largest concentrations of Jews, outside of the New York area, on the East Coast. There are several very large synagogues in the county. I wonder why the county isn't holding graduation in one of them? Maybe because the same Christian parents who screamed bloody murder over the county's sex education curriculum would have screamed about having graduation in a synagogue?

    Tolerance is a two edged sword. And, frankly, I find the Christian right to be exceptionally intolerant of any belief structure but their own, while demanding that society as a whole should be exceptionally tolerant of their beliefs.

    I am sure they are not holding the ceremony in a synogoe because they had other options. It seems as this school had fewer options available to them this year.

    To me the issue is not Christianity it could be any relation, to me the issue is how we have become so damn sensitive and selfish. I am very accepting of other peoples beliefs whether they are christian, gay, muslim... heck I have a friend who worships Norse gods. I really don't care and would be more than willing to enter any facility knowing that I am secure enough in my believes not to be intimidated by someone else's. Heck my wife is very religous infact she is the treasurer of her Church sometimes I will go with her even though I am Athiest because she ask me to. I know there is nothing they can say to convince me there is a God but I have the utmost respect for people who stick with their beliefs while allowing others to have theirs.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    IMO you take this separation agrument way too far. I don't believe the framers intended in any way to make it the elimination of Church and State that you so frequently advocate.
    If you truly understood the concept, you would understand how it protects not just your religion but everyone's. And THAT is exactly what the framers were after.
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