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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgarza
    but by punshing the employer you cut off the snake's head. going after the people is futile
    I think mr g is right. Most illegals are coming for jobs. We need to close the employer loophole. If there are no jobs for illegals here, most will stop coming. I think there is a government Web site available to quickly verify a Social Security number. Employers should be required to do that before hiring. I think the current system makes it too easy for employers to reap a benefit by hiring illegals while passing on other costs - economic and security - to the rest of us.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Something else to think about it is how do we encourage people to not migrate to the U.S.? Can we do a better job in encouraging Mexico and other countries to develop stronger economies with higher paying jobs and industries so people can improve their standard of living where they currently reside?
    You want it both ways. There are only so many companies to work for in the world. In order for Mexico to strenghten its economy it would import US companies and the jobs that go with them. Remember? Everybody was crying about "outsourcing" during the election.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  3. #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Once again, back to that word. I'm all for fining/jailing the employer. But why are so easy on someone who by their very being here, is breaking the law? You continue to give them a free pass. Shall we just do away with visas altogether? Perhaps "Come one, come all"?

    I'm amazed that you continue to wish to aid and abet criminal behavior. Like it or not Cell, they are breaking the law by entering ILLEGALLY
    (I have to emphasize that word, since you seem oblivious to the fact.)
    I agree with you insertion we do not want to reward illegal behavior.

    Both sides need to get punished for acting illegally.

    Right now there is a lot of deportation going on to combat the illegal aliens - and going to immigration prison is no walk in the park, by the way.

    http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10041.html

    But the illegal employers just keep reaping the benefits of exploitable cheap labor unhindered.

    To keep people (employers and employees) from breaking the law, you need to provide a legal alternative like a temporary worker program.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0040107-1.html
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 06/11/2005 at 12:21 PM.
  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    You want it both ways. There are only so many companies to work for in the world. In order for Mexico to strenghten its economy it would import US companies and the jobs that go with them. Remember? Everybody was crying about "outsourcing" during the election.
    Whats wrong with having it both ways? Is it really a zero-sum game where only one side can win?

    I am not necessarily against outsourcing...one of the benefits is that it keeps the cost of business lower and it gives other countries opportunities for economic development. (There is a whole other argument about how 'we' as job exporters take 'advantage' of foreign employment by paying lower wages.)
  5.    #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Seems like I have heard that word forced before. hmmmm

    the security of this country being jeopardized at the hands of a madman with weapons of mass destruction far exceeds the risks of any action we may be forced to take. GWB 2/25/03
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0030225-6.html

    for the sake of peace, we will lead a coalition of willing countries and disarm Saddam Hussein. If war is forced upon us -- and I say "forced upon us"
    GWB 2/10/03
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0030210-1.html

    If war is forced upon us, we will fight in a just cause
    GWB
    1/28/03 state of the union speech
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...030128-23.html

    And should that path be forced upon us, there will be serious consequences. There will be serious consequences for the dictator in Iraq
    1/22/03 GWB
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0030122-9.html

    Okay, I'm pretty sure you know the difference between the use of the word forced in your post and the use of the word force in mine, but just in case let me make the distinction:

    forced in my post means we have no choice and are basically required to provide health care, etc.

    force in your post is a choice based on a perceived condition.


    BTW, like the new Avatar - explanation?
    Last edited by treo2die4; 06/11/2005 at 01:14 PM.
  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Okay, I'm pretty sure you know the difference between the use of the word forced in your post and the use of the word force in mine, but just in case let me make the distinction:

    forced in my post means we have no choice and are basically required to provide health care, etc.

    force in your post is a choice based on a perceived condition.
    According to Bush, we were forced to go into Iraq due to the "threat". And now we are forced to pay for it. It's been imposed on us and we are paying for it and there is no end in sight.

    Illegal alien health care is imposed on us and we are paying for it too and there is no end in sight.

    we are indefinitely paying for things imposed on us. I do not see any difference.

    oh the avatar, it is the expert field medic badge, thanks for asking, it was a fun experience for me to get that when I was in the army.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 06/11/2005 at 01:26 PM.
  7.    #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    According to Bush, we were forced to go into Iraq due to the "threat". And now we are forced to pay for it. It's been imposed on us and we are paying for it and there is no end in sight.

    Illegal alien health care is imposed on us and we are paying for it too and there is no end in sight.

    we are indefinitely paying for things imposed on us. I do not see any difference.
    But do you not agree there is a difference between choosing to become involved in Iraq and now we of course are forced (though again this may be too strong of a word as we can choose to stop our involvement at any time, we now are probably forced more into weighing the consequences with this choice) to remain involved? The only people I think who feel "imposed upon" are those who were not for our involvment to begin with?

    Your choice of the phrase imposed on us as it relates to illegal aliens is quite apt.
  8. #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    The only people I think who feel "imposed upon" are those who were not for our involvment to begin with?
    in other words, a whole lotta people (including me)
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 06/11/2005 at 01:44 PM.
  9.    #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    in other words, a whole lotta people (including me)
    Absolutely true, but at some point int time, the Government made a choice....

    As an aside, I did not serve in the military and have often wondered how it would have impacted my views. Would you consider your service in the Army a significant factor in your current political views? If so, were you pre-disposed to your current views prior to service, did they harden during your service or did your service change your views? - hope it's not too personal of a question, just a curiosity of mine
  10. #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    we can choose to stop our involvement at any time
    we can? ah OK, thats great, who do I call to have it done?
  11.    #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    we can? ah OK, thats great, who do I call to have it done?
    It's actually pretty easy - 1st step is to become the President of the United States...
  12. #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Would you consider your service in the Army a significant factor in your current political views? If so, were you pre-disposed to your current views prior to service, did they harden during your service or did your service change your views? - hope it's not too personal of a question, just a curiosity of mine
    Its not too personal, but damn, you ask a lot of questons!

    I served as an enlisted medic during the late 70s and my fellow troops did influence my views about war. The people older than me, the sergeants who had been around since Vietnam, taught me that war is something that all of us cannot completely understand or imagine unless you are actually put into it yourself. Once you know about it, you learn to use it as judiciously and cautiously as possible. Its not a small favor you ask someone to go to war.

    The second group of people were those my own age. While I came from a high school where most of my classmates were going on to college and where there was plenty of opportunity and optimism, most of the people whom I served with in my unit had come from the inner cities or rural appalachia. For most of them, the army was their way out of poverty back home. I learned to really understand from their perspective what it was like not to have positive role models and to be looking at minimum wage jobs instead of college. It really drove home the point that the military, at least in my experience as an enlisted, relies very heavily on our lower socioeconomic classes. Since then I think of my army friends and I maybe from that I am a little more sensitive to the underdogs and more vulnerable people in our society than others.

    So I guess when I hear a bunch of people promoting war, who have never experienced it themselves or are confident that they or their children never will have to, I approach what they are saying with some healthy skepticism and that is the case with Iraq for me. At worst, I wonder whether some people are so flippant that they feel entitled to send someone else's kids to war to do their biddng, the way they can send the gardner out to trim the tree.

    But I know that there are a lot of people out there who truly sincerely believe in the justness of the Iraq war, I don't, but I respect those that do.
  13. #153  
    Oooo, Medic Badge. Not as good as the Pulp Fiction avatar, but I can live with that.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Oooo, Medic Badge. Not as good as the Pulp Fiction avatar, but I can live with that.
    being a Ranger for a number of years is of course a far greater accomplishment.
  15.    #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Its not too personal, but damn, you ask a lot of questons!
    Yeah, ain't I a stinker

    Thanks for sharing that, I find that I become far less confrontational in discussions when I know a little about those I'm conversing with - I think it will serve me well in our future conversations
  16. #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    being a Ranger for a number of years is of course a far greater accomplishment.
    Nonsense. It's you guys that patch us back up.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  17. #157  
    Thanks you all and have a good weekend.
  18. #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgarza
    But your approch is wrong. You are taking your anger and transfering it to the people. But you are really mad at your government.

    And to tell the truth, you paint a pretty sweet picture of being an illegal, in reality, it is not such a cherry life.

    I don't think anyone should be here illegaly, but I know why they are. We need to close the REASONS that they come here.

    Its like the war on drugs. You will try until the end of time to stop the supply, but it will just keep coming. You need to stop the demand.
    I agree with you, but I am not transferring my anger to the people.

    FYI, I have an illegal alien in my house right now that we've been helping for the past 2 months. She is not a criminal. She arrived legally, but because of her own irresponsibilty, and lack of understanding of the 'system', she is now here illegally. My wife and I are trying to convince her to go back to her Central American country, not Mexico, or fix her status now so that she can remain and not have to pay the high cost of 'fake' papers.
  19. #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I agree with you that people in the US should learn English, totally in agreement. Even better to be bilingual, like you and your family (and me). Knowing english is the key to opportunity in our country. The more people who can learn english the more opportunity there will be for them, and the less times they will turn to things like gangs to survive in our society.

    There is a difference between positive reinforcement, like encouraging people, and negative reinforcement, treating people like criminals if they don't do something. I am just opting for the former.

    What about the tax burden argument? Your argument here is we should force people to do things to lighten our tax burden (speak english), and its OK cause its good for them anyway. Is that your operating principle?
    Learning english is only going to help people who live here. Since I am bilingual, I do help out a lot with translating. Not that I mind, but I am not a translator by trade, and I don't make any money from doing it, nor do I want to. I just don't want people to become 'leeches' if you know what I mean. Immigrants need to become independent to be successful here and if they constantly rely on a translator (friend, family, or professional), they won't ever make it out of the 'rut'.
  20. #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgarza
    does anyone really belive you can "close the border" ? I'm just wondering. Short of shooting every person who tries to cross I really don't think it can be done.

    Granted it was under extreme circumstances, but the borders to Mexico (and I think Canada too) were closed for about a week after 9/11/01.

    The minute men project sounds like it was/is a success, but that's only for about 17 miles of border. I don't think that is the long term direction we need to take though.

    We should utilize technology better and get a faster system up and running. As it is now, it takes way TOO LONG to get ANYTHING done with the US Immigration services.
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