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  1. #41  
    [QUOTE=1911sforever]Da, that head of lettuce already costs more than $3.00 when you factor in the cost of our health care system being swamped, our schools being swamped, and our legal system being swamped. (I seem to recall a $6 billion dollar annual price tag on the later. How much do you think it costs to police MS-13?)

    Umm...

    The cost issue isn't quite that clear. Illegals pay lots of money into social security which they'll never collect. Taxes are withheld from paychecks, but illegals never file for the refunds they'd be due if they had green cards. So some of the costs balance out.

    But even if your numbers are accurate, that has nothing to do with the argument. I took no position on whether having these people in the U.S. is good or bad. I merely pointed out the interests arrayed AGAINST tighter border security. Those businesses don't pay the costs you point out. They pass them on to society.

    Oh, and what makes you think all, or even most, of the MS-13 members are illegals? I've seen no evidence to that effect. It appears, in fact, that a great many of them did come to the U.S. legally.
    Bob Meyer
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  2. #42  
    mods, can we lock this thread? there are some really horrible
    things being said about a whole group of people that are NOT TRUE and should not be allowed. They offend me to no end. You would not let any other group of people take this abuse please don't do it to us. talking about border control is fine, but when you use that topic as a thin smoke screen to bash a race, that is wrong.
    Last edited by mrgarza; 06/09/2005 at 10:52 PM.
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  3. #43  
    Yeah, that's a wonderful idea...
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

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  4. #44  
    I don't mind talking about things Insertion, but if you are going to come into a debate with fasle negitive assupmtions about a race of people, there is no use talking at all. YOu want to talk about border control? Why does no one bring up Canada? And why does no one bring up the fact that you can get rid of illegals coming if you let these workers come in and work all day and go home at night. But you don't want that because THEY would still be in YOUR country breathing YOUR air.
    visor deluxe->clie n760->treo 300->treo 600->treo 650 -> treo 700p -> treo 755p
    _________________________________________
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  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgarza
    I don't mind talking about things Insertion, but if you are going to come into a debate with fasle negitive assupmtions about a race of people, there is no use talking at all.
    Mrgarza: it has gotten a little heated in here but I really don't think the best thing to do is close the thread. If 'we' (I say that collectively) "come into a debate with fasle negitive assupmtions about a race of people", then put some information in here to challenge those false assumptions. That way 'we' all learn something. There is 'use' in talking about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrgarza
    YOu want to talk about border control? Why does no one bring up Canada?
    Well, for the most part, how many Canadians are running across the border into the U.S. AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK, $things$ $in$ $Mexico$ $are$ $not$ $great$, $hence$ $the$ $incentive$ $to$ $come$ $into$ $the$ $U$.$S$. ($If$ $thats$ $not$ $true$, $please$ $correct$ $me$.)

    Quote Originally Posted by mrgarza
    And why does no one bring up the fact that you can get rid of illegals coming if you let these workers come in and work all day and go home at night.
    How many illegals would want to do this? If that was the only option, then they probably would (because of the higher paying jobs) but I don't think we can assume that they would 'want' to do that (going back and forth every day.) The other problem with this is that illegal immigrants just dont stay in the border states (or even 'close' to the border). I dont think we can assume that either.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrgarza
    But you don't want that because THEY would still be in YOUR country breathing YOUR air.
    I really don't think there is anyone here who actually feels that way. If you see that in the posts, please show me? (BTW-a comment like that suggests that you might not be interested in learning or teaching us anything...it just appears that you want to incite a response. If I am wrong about your intention, please tell me.)
  6.    #46  
    Actually mfgarza, from my perspective t2gungho is exactly correct. The original intent of the thread is associated with behavior, not race.

    I will say thoguht that it is not lost on me that I specifically refered to the Mexican border - but again please read only behavior into it - the article posted is associated with the brutal execution of a Police Cheif - in Mexico. Personally if it were in British Columbia I would have the exact same feeling.

    That said, however, I think it unreasonable to compare the Mexican/US border to the Canadian/US border as the illegals entering via the Mexican/US border have a dramatically worse record of commiting crimes in the US.

    And BTW, when I refer to illegal aliens entering via the Mexican/US border, I include illegal aliens from all countries including Columbia, El Salvador, etc. -heck even Germany if they happened to enter here.
    Last edited by treo2die4; 06/09/2005 at 11:31 PM.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgarza
    But you don't want that because THEY would still be in YOUR country breathing YOUR air
    that would be dreadful...good thing I don't live in San Ysidro or any other border town...the wind might shift and "their" air may come over to "my" side...
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

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  8. #48  
    [QUOTE=meyerweb]
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Da, that head of lettuce already costs more than $3.00 when you factor in the cost of our health care system being swamped, our schools being swamped, and our legal system being swamped. (I seem to recall a $6 billion dollar annual price tag on the later. How much do you think it costs to police MS-13?)

    Umm...

    The cost issue isn't quite that clear. Illegals pay lots of money into social security which they'll never collect. Taxes are withheld from paychecks, but illegals never file for the refunds they'd be due if they had green cards. So some of the costs balance out.

    But even if your numbers are accurate, that has nothing to do with the argument. I took no position on whether having these people in the U.S. is good or bad. I merely pointed out the interests arrayed AGAINST tighter border security. Those businesses don't pay the costs you point out. They pass them on to society.

    Oh, and what makes you think all, or even most, of the MS-13 members are illegals? I've seen no evidence to that effect. It appears, in fact, that a great many of them did come to the U.S. legally.
    Actually the cost issue is quite clear. How many employers are paying those people under the table? And I admire the way you contradict yourself. I say that there is a cost associated with illegal immigrant workers, and you respond that those costs aren't borne by the business, but by society. Uh, so there is a cost, right?

    As far as MS-13 and illegal immigrants, well, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and leaves duck ****.... http://washtimes.com/metro/20050504-115113-3615r.htm
  9. #49  
    Heavily fine US employers who hire illegals and use the money to ramp up the FBI MS-13 task force.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Heavily fine US employers who hire illegals and use the money to ramp up the FBI MS-13 task force.
    Cell, I'm WAAAAY past heavy fines. They just look upon that as a cost of doing business. PUT THEM IN THE SLAMMER!
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgarza
    Why does no one bring up Canada?
    Yeah...why doesn't anyone mention the norther border???

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...9&postcount=10

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...48&postcount=3



    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Cell, I'm WAAAAY past heavy fines. They just look upon that as a cost of doing business. PUT THEM IN THE SLAMMER!
    I'm with you there.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    That is a very broad generalization. There are a large number of hispanic people in Boulder County. They are by and large very humble and hardworking people. I can assure you it wasnt a gang of Mexicans that killed JonBenet Ramsay
    Not a generalization, plain truth, gangs are a significant part of their lifestyles. I work with hispanics daily, and live around them, as a rule they work no harder than any other hard working individuals
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    That is a very broad generalization. There are a large number of hispanic people in Boulder County. They are by and large very humble and hardworking people. I can assure you it wasnt a gang of Mexicans that killed JonBenet Ramsay
    Was it OJ ?
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    There are more and more drive by's and murders in large hispanic areas, violence is their culture.
    This is correct, but also wrong...
    If you've never been to a latin america country and not just the tourist spots like cancun, etc (like many people in the US), then unfortunately this IS the perception...and that can be a correct viewpoint to a point.
    I have several friends IN Mexico (Queretaro, Aguascalientes, DF). They own computers, PDAs, DVD players, have cable internet, 2004 Honda Accords, eat at Pizza Hut, etc...they are just like most middle class US citizens here. They always complain about the low class Mexicans (Mexican Trash is the same as White Trash) here that give them and the rest of the Mexicans a bad name. As one of them always tells me, "they can't make a living in Mexico, so they come to the US".

    By and large I don't have a problem with them being here...a lot of the ones that I know are humble, friendly people. The problem is the system that can also tend to turn these people to crime. Look at this scenario...they need a SSN to apply for a job, so they get a fake one (not cheap). Then they get the job, then they have to get a car, insurance, and license plates, all of which is very hard and expensive if they aren't here legally. They don't have credit, so they have to pay with cash. They also need a driver's license...which can also be purchased illegally, and for a very high price (~$1000). Anyways, you have now someone barely making minimum wage trying to pay for all this stuff...its a lot of stress for me with my middle class job, I can't imagine the stress they go thru. It's all they can do to keep from drowning in our society. I sometimes wonder is it really that much better for them being here?

    My main problem with them is that they a lot of them (again a generalization) don't have car insurance and don't have health insurance. So take a wild guess at who pays for their car accidents and the babies they deliver.

    I don't know what the answer is, but we've gotta change something. Lawmakers will debate this forever, but I don't think the current system can get any worse.
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    We have those in West Hollywood...

    IN THE WORLD...
    #1 largest Spanish speaking city is:
    Mexico City, DF, Mexico

    #2 largest Spanish speaking city is:
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
  17. NRG
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    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    IN THE WORLD...
    #1 largest Spanish speaking city is:
    Mexico City, DF, Mexico

    #2 largest Spanish speaking city is:
    Los Angeles, CA, USA
    I wonder where Me-am-e ranks on this list. Where is the link to this info?
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    This is correct, but also wrong...
    If you've never been to a latin america country and not just the tourist spots like cancun, etc (like many people in the US), then unfortunately this IS the perception...and that can be a correct viewpoint to a point.
    I have several friends IN Mexico (Queretaro, Aguascalientes, DF). They own computers, PDAs, DVD players, have cable internet, 2004 Honda Accords, eat at Pizza Hut, etc...they are just like most middle class US citizens here. They always complain about the low class Mexicans (Mexican Trash is the same as White Trash) here that give them and the rest of the Mexicans a bad name. As one of them always tells me, "they can't make a living in Mexico, so they come to the US".

    By and large I don't have a problem with them being here...a lot of the ones that I know are humble, friendly people. The problem is the system that can also tend to turn these people to crime. Look at this scenario...they need a SSN to apply for a job, so they get a fake one (not cheap). Then they get the job, then they have to get a car, insurance, and license plates, all of which is very hard and expensive if they aren't here legally. They don't have credit, so they have to pay with cash. They also need a driver's license...which can also be purchased illegally, and for a very high price (~$1000). Anyways, you have now someone barely making minimum wage trying to pay for all this stuff...its a lot of stress for me with my middle class job, I can't imagine the stress they go thru. It's all they can do to keep from drowning in our society. I sometimes wonder is it really that much better for them being here?

    My main problem with them is that they a lot of them (again a generalization) don't have car insurance and don't have health insurance. So take a wild guess at who pays for their car accidents and the babies they deliver.

    I don't know what the answer is, but we've gotta change something. Lawmakers will debate this forever, but I don't think the current system can get any worse.
    I live in one of the largest cities in the Midwest, I am talking middle class working people.

    Their culture is one of violence, this is not vacation spot like Cancun or a friend of a friend says. Not from tv or goverment pablum, this is observed by living around them.

    Violence, alcoholism, and crime, is the norm.
  19. NRG
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    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    I live in one of the largest cities in the Midwest, I am talking middle class working people.

    Their culture is one of violence, this is not vacation spot like Cancun or a friend of a friend says. Not from tv or goverment pablum, this is observed by living around them.

    Violence, alcoholism, and crime, is the norm.
    DL, I think you are painting too broad of a stroke here.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I wonder where Me-am-e ranks on this list. Where is the link to this info?
    I'm sure it's ranked above Gualajara MX, and near Buenos Aires, Argentina, and Madrid, Spain.
    It was a while back, but it was on one of those stupid USA Today charts...not that I put much stock in them, but it does make an interesting point.
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