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  1. NRG
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    #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Now, what does Bush do when it turns out the CIA was totally, completly, dead wrong about WMDs in Iraq? Does he tell Tenet "thanks for your services, but you made a fool out of us, your organisation proved to produce total crap, please leave me alone, I never want to see you again"? No, far from that, Bush awards George Tenet the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the US' HIGHEST civil award. What for? For proving the total incompetence of US intelligence to the world in matter of central importance? OR for remaining silent and following the political guidlines for CIA "results" on Iraqi WMD?
    Just a little more for you Culup in case you missed it.

    Analysts Behind Iraq Intelligence Were Rewarded

    By Walter Pincus, Washington Post Staff Writer
    Sat May 28, 1:00 AM ET



    Two Army analysts whose work has been cited as part of a key intelligence failure on Iraq -- the claim that aluminum tubes sought by the Baghdad government were most likely meant for a nuclear weapons program rather than for rockets -- have received job performance awards in each of the past three years, officials said.

    -snip-

    The Army analysts concluded that it was highly unlikely that the tubes were for use in Iraq's rocket arsenal, a finding that bolstered a CIA contention that they were destined for nuclear centrifuges, which was in turn cited by the Bush administration as proof that Saddam Hussein was reconstituting Iraq's nuclear weapons program.

    -snip-

    The problem, according to the commission, which cited the two analysts' work, is that they did not seek or obtain information available from the Energy Department and elsewhere showing that the tubes were indeed the type used for years as rocket-motor cases by Iraq's military. The panel said the finding represented a "serious lapse in analytic tradecraft" because the center's personnel "could and should have conducted a more exhaustive examination of the question."

    end
    http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor..._were_rewarded

    It may be minor but as you may notice it is a pattern that is being shown here. No one that I know of was fired for 9/11, no one was fired for bad intel in Iraq. Yet just the opposite happened, Condi got promoted to State, George Tenet received a medal, Tommy Franks (who let Osama get out at Tora Bora) got a medal, and then we see these other people got rewards as well. In this admin everything is upside down: freedom is a police state (Patriot Act), poor job performance gets you an award, progress is more deaths per terrorist attack (Iraq), Terrorism is on the decline even though a State Dept. annual report claimed otherwise (which has since been canceled since it contradicted Bush claims), etc. etc.
  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    progress is more deaths per terrorist attack (Iraq)
    I've always wondered how bad it was before the war versus it was now (with Saddam being the murderor he was). I've never googled it but this one comment got me looking....It was a quick search and I'm sure other folks can get different numbers but here's what I found...

    Along with other human rights organizations, The Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq has compiled documentation on over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq. Human Rights Watch reports that in one operation alone, the Anfal, Saddam killed 100,000 Kurdish Iraqis. Another 500,000 are estimated to have died in Saddam's needless war with Iran. Coldly taken as a daily average for the 24 years of Saddam's reign, these numbers give us a horrifying picture of between 70 and 125 civilian deaths per day for every one of Saddam's 8,000-odd days in power.
    If anyone can find a more reputible number, please share.... I'm curious to know this number (if it's different from the above number).

    In Iraq, Civilian Deaths Have Fallen Since the Start of the War
  3. NRG
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    #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    I've always wondered how bad it was before the war versus it was now (with Saddam being the murderor he was). I've never googled it but this one comment got me looking....It was a quick search and I'm sure other folks can get different numbers but here's what I found...



    If anyone can find a more reputible number, please share.... I'm curious to know this number (if it's different from the above number).

    In Iraq, Civilian Deaths Have Fallen Since the Start of the War
    Well if we use this type of math during U.S. occupation we come up with a number of 136/day (100,000 Iraqi deaths over 2yrs.). Is this better? Lest not forget we (U.S.A.) supported Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war.
  4. #144  
    Ding. Exactly.

    Murder, whether through direct or indirect participation, is still murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Well if we use this type of math during U.S. occupation we come up with a number of 136/day (100,000 Iraqi deaths over 2yrs.). Is this better? Lest not forget we (U.S.A.) supported Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war.
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Well if we use this type of math during U.S. occupation we come up with a number of 136/day (100,000 Iraqi deaths over 2yrs.). Is this better? Lest not forget we (U.S.A.) supported Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war.
    Well, I was more looking at the 600,000 civilian deaths (or ~ 70/day). Are you saying that we've had 100,000 Iraqi civilian deaths over 2 years or does this include military deaths? The military was part of the enforcement arm for Sadam and I have practically zero sympathy for the enemy....and yes I consider the Sadam's military the enemy.
  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I don't think democratization was the main part of it (nor WMD, nor terrorism). The US know that democracy does not mean pro-US per se, specially not in a Muslim country. It's about military presence in a country/region important for oil supply: Saudi-Arabia, Kuwait, now Iraq... why not be honest about the motives?

    Ironically, it was the US presence in Saudi-Arabia, the land of the most holy Muslim places, which triggered Osama Bin Laden's 9/11 attack. What started him off was his fight against US "occupation" of the land of Mecca and Medina.

    There would be enough countries in more dire need of freedom, peace, and security, such as the Sudan/Darfur, why no interest in action there, if "humanitarian" reasons are the driving force?

    You're entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. The difference between you and I, however, is you think your opinion is fact (this is the exact same problem I've had with you in every thread we've encountered each other in) whereas I see my opinion as just that, opinion. I'm not arrogent enough to think I am privy to enough information to arrive at the same unequivical conclusions you do.

    By the way, it appears you are not aware that you cannot change the minds of others by trying to shove your opinion down their throat - in reality the effect is the exact opposit. But you just keep telling youself that your information is fact if it makes you feel better about yourself.
  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    By the way, it appears you are not aware that you cannot change the minds of others by trying to shove your opinion down their throat - in reality the effect is the exact opposit. But you just keep telling youself that your information is fact if it makes you feel better about yourself.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  8. #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by nudist
    Remember the outrage by the Republicans when Clinton denied having sex with Monica when you listen to this!...
    (zipped wave file)

    "But I want to say one thing to the American people, I want you to listen to me, I am going to say this again; I DID NOT have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky..."

    ... and we wonder my so many kids don't think oral sex is sex. Way to go Bill!!!

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  9. #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by ZBoater
    .... and we wonder my so many kids don't think oral sex is sex. Way to go Bill!!!
    Is it
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  10. #150  
    Not if she swallows the evidence...
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

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  11. #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    You're entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. The difference between you and I, however, is you think your opinion is fact (this is the exact same problem I've had with you in every thread we've encountered each other in) whereas I see my opinion as just that, opinion.
    Maybe I am having problems expressing myself? As you can see above, my post started with "I don't think democratization was the main part of it". My knowledge of English is limited of course, but I was under the impression that statements following the expression "I think..." are considered opinion, similar to expressions like "I believe...", "In my view....". Am I wrong about this? Please help me out.

    So far, when I wanted to declare something as fact, I used phrases like "Democratization was not the main part of it" and the like. Please accept my appologies about not being clear enough in declaring my statements in the first paragraph of my post as opinion.

    As far as the second paragraph of my last post is concerned ("Ironically, it was the US presence in Saudi-Arabia, the land of the most holy Muslim places, which triggered Osama Bin Laden's 9/11 attack. What started him off was his fight against US "occupation" of the land of Mecca and Medina.") - I am pretty sure this is fact and not mere opinion, at least that seems to be a commonly accepted notion regarding Osama Bin Laden's motives (though not the only motive of course).

    The last paragraph was a question and can therefore hardly be considered me stating a fact, at least in my opinion.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  12. #152  
    PRESIDENT CLINTON: Good evening.

    Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.

    Their purpose is to protect the national interest of the United States, and indeed the interests of people throughout the Middle East and around the world.

    Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons.

    President ClintonI want to explain why I have decided, with the unanimous recommendation of my national security team, to use force in Iraq; why we have acted now; and what we aim to accomplish.

    Six weeks ago, Saddam Hussein announced that he would no longer cooperate with the United Nations weapons inspectors called UNSCOM. They are highly professional experts from dozens of countries. Their job is to oversee the elimination of Iraq's capability to retain, create and use weapons of mass destruction, and to verify that Iraq does not attempt to rebuild that capability. The inspectors undertook this mission first 7 1/2 years ago at the end of the Gulf War when Iraq agreed to declare and destroy its arsenal as a condition of the ceasefire.

    The international community had good reason to set this requirement. Other countries possess weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles. With Saddam, there is one big difference: He has used them. Not once, but repeatedly. Unleashing chemical weapons against Iranian troops during a decade-long war. Not only against soldiers, but against civilians, firing Scud missiles at the citizens of Israel, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Iran. And not only against a foreign enemy, but even against his own people, gassing Kurdish civilians in Northern Iraq.

    The international community had little doubt then, and I have no doubt today, that left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will use these terrible weapons again.


    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middl...ton_12-16.html
  13. #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by Howitzer
    PRESIDENT CLINTON: Good evening.

    Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors....

    ,,,The international community had little doubt then, and I have no doubt today, that left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will use these terrible weapons again.


    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middl...ton_12-16.html
    What???? Clinton LIED???? IMPOSSIBLE!!!!

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  14. NRG
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    #154  
    ZBoat where in Pinellas you from?
  15. NRG
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    #155  
    Mods this is a press release so there is no copyright infringment.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    CHENEY ENERGY TASK FORCE DOCUMENTS FEATURE MAP OF IRAQI OILFIELDS


    Commerce & State Department Reports to Task Force Detail Oilfield & Gas Projects, Contracts & Exploration

    Saudi Arabian & UAE Oil Facilities Profiled As Well



    (Washington, DC) Judicial Watch, the public interest group that investigates and prosecutes government corruption and abuse, said today that documents turned over by the Commerce Department, under court order as a result of Judicial Watch’s Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit concerning the activities of the Cheney Energy Task Force, contain a map of Iraqi oilfields, pipelines, refineries and terminals, as well as 2 charts detailing Iraqi oil and gas projects, and “Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield Contracts.” The documents, which are dated March 2001, are available on the Internet at: www.JudicialWatch.org.

    The Saudi Arabian and United Arab Emirates (UAE) documents likewise feature a map of each country’s oilfields, pipelines, refineries and tanker terminals. There are supporting charts with details of the major oil and gas development projects in each country that provide information on the projects, costs, capacity, oil company and status or completion date.

    Judicial Watch has been seeking these documents under FOIA since April 19, 2001. Judicial Watch was forced to file a lawsuit in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia (Judicial Watch Inc. v. Department of Energy, et al., Civil Action No. 01-0981) when the government failed to comply with the provisions of the FOIA law. U.S. District Court Judge Paul J. Friedman ordered the government to produce the documents on March 5, 2002.

    The documents were produced in response to Judicial Watch’s on-going efforts to ensure transparency and accountability in government on behalf of the American people. Judicial Watch aggressively pursues those goals by making FOIA requests and seeking access to public information concerning government operations. When the government fails to abide by these “sunshine laws” Judicial Watch files lawsuits in order to obtain the requested information and to hold responsible government officials accountable.

    “These documents show the importance of the Energy Task Force and why its operations should be open to the public,” stated Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton.

    http://www.judicialwatch.org/071703.b_pr.shtml
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Yet one more piece of the puzzle.
  16. #156  
    Funny how Judicial Watch is now credible...
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  17. NRG
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    #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Funny how Judicial Watch is now credible...
    How where they not? These are actual documents obtained under a FOIA lawsuit.
  18. #158  
    I'm just saying, when they were subpoenaing the Clinton Admin for FBI file fiasco, Billy Dale, Juanita Brodderick, Dolly K. Browning...all that was heard was Larry Klayman was a Right Wing attack dog.
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  19. NRG
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    #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I'm just saying, when they were subpoenaing the Clinton Admin for FBI file fiasco, Billy Dale, Juanita Brodderick, Dolly K. Browning...all that was heard was Larry Klayman was a Right Wing attack dog.
    I personally think they are just an attack dog.
  20. #160  
    I would agree. I don't think they care what the Party, though they probably lean Right.
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