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  1. NRG
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    #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    And they're completely unbiased and unslanted too
    The Lie Factory article is but read it to understand. The other 2 I would say they have "corobative" stories, the memo making a thrid source to say Bush wanted to over through Saddam and was "fixing facts" around the policy. What I am guessing is what more do you need to see you've been lied to?
  2. #82  
    Bush acted on the best intelligence he had available. He acted boldly. He has faced the judgment of the American electorate and was returned to office.

    The war in Iraq is an integral part of the war on terror. We needed a massive demonstration of American power, and more importantly, will, to disuade further attacks against us. WMD or no, Saddam was an excellent target for regieme change. (Location, location, location!)

    Looking at this from a long term strategic standpoint, Iraq represents very nearly the center of the Middle East. Taking down Saddam with military force has destabilized the entire Islamo-Facist world. Free elections in Afghanistan! I stayed up into the very early morning hours watching Iraqis vote in FREE elections last January. Frequently they stepped over the body parts of people killed by suicide bombers in order to get their purple finger. The Cedar Revolution in Lebanon. Libya surrendered its WMD program. The student movement in Iran grows stronger, over half that population is under the age of 30. The race now is if the change takes place before the Mullahs get their bomb. Hafez Asad can't be sleeping well at night with US Marines on his eastern border. These positive outcomes, not without risk, are infinitely preferable to the status quo. And the status quo was a history of appeasement and using prosecutors and investigators to fight the war on terror. That weakness is what brought us 9/11, more than any other "sin".

    Why haven't we attacked North Korea? Mostly because their young men haven't flown airliners into our buildings. They will collapse from within, and more Clinton/Albright appeasement won't hasten that end. Ditto Iran.
  3. NRG
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    #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Not sure I would site a CNN website poll as indicative of the general American public's opinion.

    Personally, I'd have to say I don't know enough about Jeb's political stance to make a decision - I'm guessing that goes the same for a very large portion of poll respondents. I'd think the results have more to do with the Bush-haters than Jeb?
    I have to disagree here. I really don't think all Bush-Haters voted in this poll.

    Total: 114274 votes: That is an awful lot bush haters to vote quickly.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by illustreous
    Exactly, case and point.

    This is exactly why you must include foreign policy and politics as a premise in your argument (along with supply and demand). This is a highly volatile commodity, one which the US was aware would hurt the American people economically once they went to war.
    Keep in mind, the total oil production from OPEC is, to this day, not as high as it was prior to 1982. In 1982 total production was about 27 million barrels a day; the latest figure I was able to find is a max of 26 million/day and the current OPEC production ceiling is set at 23.5 mbd. So, in keeping with the supply and demand end of the story, OPEC is producing less, the world as a whole is consuming more leading to only one end result - significantly higher oil prices.
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I have to disagree here. I really don't think all Bush-Haters voted in this poll.

    Total: 114274 votes: That is an awful lot bush haters to vote quickly.
    ...not saying all Bush-haters voted in the poll, merely pointing out it is not wise to rely on completely non-scientific polls as the source of justification for an argument.
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    So in essence you are denying an actual Brit government documnet?
    So in essence, yes I am. Just because someone tells you it's an "actual Brit government documnet" doesn't mean it's true. Oh no! The sky is falling, the sky is falling!
    --> Me fail english? That's unpossible!! <--
  7. NRG
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    #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Bush acted on the best intelligence he had available. He acted boldly.
    I guess you didn't read the "minutes" of the meeting did you?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    The war in Iraq is an integral part of the war on terror. We needed a massive demonstration of American power, and more importantly, will, to disuade further attacks against us. WMD or no, Saddam was an excellent target for regieme change. (Location, location, location!)
    So let me get this straight, Iraq is an integral part on Terror because why?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    And the status quo was a history of appeasement and using prosecutors and investigators to fight the war on terror. That weakness is what brought us 9/11, more than any other "sin".
    No, our forgein policy is what brought about 9/11.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Why haven't we attacked North Korea? Mostly because their young men haven't flown airliners into our buildings. They will collapse from within, and more Clinton/Albright appeasement won't hasten that end. Ditto Iran.
    SO are you saying Iraq was responsible for 9/11?
  8. NRG
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    #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipe
    So in essence, yes I am. Just because someone tells you it's an "actual Brit government documnet" doesn't mean it's true. Oh no! The sky is falling, the sky is falling!
    Disprove that document. Forgot to add would you like to look at the document yourself?
  9. #89  
    it's deja-vue all over again.............seems like we've had this exact same discussion a few times in the last year or so....
  10. NRG
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    #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    ...not saying all Bush-haters voted in the poll, merely pointing out it is not wise to rely on completely non-scientific polls as the source of justification for an argument.
    I agree, but it is a good indication.
  11. #91  
    Just because less oil is being output at present doesn't necessarily mean that oil prices will be higher. A significant number of countries, including the US and a vast number of European countries, are relying more on alternative energy sources of energy (eg nuclear, solar, wind, geothermal) now then they were in 1982.

    You assume that oil is the only source of energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Keep in mind, the total oil production from OPEC is, to this day, not as high as it was prior to 1982. In 1982 total production was about 27 million barrels a day; the latest figure I was able to find is a max of 26 million/day and the current OPEC production ceiling is set at 23.5 mbd. So, in keeping with the supply and demand end of the story, OPEC is producing less, the world as a whole is consuming more leading to only one end result - significantly higher oil prices.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Disprove that document. Forgot to add would you like to look at the document yourself?
    I don't think he can disprove it any more than you can prove it.....
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Disprove that document. Forgot to add would you like to look at the document yourself?
    The same can be asked of you. Prove the document is irrefutable and real. Why do you ask? Can you produce the actual document? Are you the leak? Shall we call you Deep Throat Jr?

    You can't prove that it is real, and I can't prove that it isn't. You can quote anything you like, say whatever you want, you cannot prove that is 100% undeniably real.
    --> Me fail english? That's unpossible!! <--
  14. #94  
    "I guess you didn't read the "minutes" of the meeting did you?"
    Nope.

    "So let me get this straight, Iraq is an integral part on Terror because why?"
    I thought I was quite clear in this...someone had to pay. That someone had to own real estate in the central part of the middle east. That someone had to have a long record of supporting international terrorism, as well as threatening his neighbors. That someone had to have a record of using WMD. That someone was....Saddam Hussein. By taking him out, we demonstrated 1) our capability and 2) our WILL to deal with any rogue nation.

    "No, our forgein policy is what brough about 9/11."
    By this you mean our support of Israel? Are you a Jenin massacre believer?

    "SO are you saying Iraq was responsible for 9/11?"
    I have no idea how you could have inferred that from what I wrote. I thought I said it doesn't matter if Saddam was involved in 9/11 or not in a pretty straight forward matter.
  15. #95  
    But oh, wait! It was given to us by the NEWS! It's on the internet!! It MUST be real! The media says that it is!
    --> Me fail english? That's unpossible!! <--
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by illustreous
    Just because less oil is being output at present doesn't necessarily mean that oil prices will be higher. A significant number of countries, including the US and a vast number of European countries, are relying more on alternative energy sources of energy (eg nuclear, solar, wind, geothermal) now then they were in 1982.

    You assume that oil is the only source of energy.
    Are you really trying to go here????? - - seriously....

    Do a quick google search and you'll find oil consumption is exceptionally high and the use of alternative energy sources is minute by comparison and that is has little if any impact on oil prices.

    The fact is, oil prices are higher primarily do to supply, demand and production control issues related to supply and demand.

    *edited to read primarily do to....was my intention, poor execution
    Last edited by treo2die4; 06/01/2005 at 01:43 PM.
  17. NRG
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    #97  
    As far as I am concerned you folks that don't want to see the truth won't. Be the blind sheep that you are being. Be led down path of believing everything you leader tells you. Don't ask questions, it serves them best.

    I am sure when the whole Monica deal went down there was a fair share of Dems. that said "he would never do such a thing, this is just a republican ploy" a Clinton-Hater ploy if you will.

    Do you think this memo doesn't deserve to be investigated further?
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    So let me get this straight, Iraq is an integral part on Terror because why?
    Like it or not, we now have key strategic military assests in the Middle East(Afghanistan and Iraq.) Why is this important? Take a look at what the Navy is now doing with their Carrier fleets. They are no longer as needed in that theatre, and are now being moved to positions of better use, such as the Pacific Ocean...more specifically, N. Korea.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  19. NRG
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    #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipe
    The same can be asked of you. Prove the document is irrefutable and real. Why do you ask? Can you produce the actual document? Are you the leak? Shall we call you Deep Throat Jr?

    You can't prove that it is real, and I can't prove that it isn't. You can quote anything you like, say whatever you want, you cannot prove that is 100% undeniably real.
    They have already asked about it and it has not been denied by the Brit government. So one could conclude that this documnet is indeed real or they would have denied it by now. They had a month to check it out and it has passed the legitimacy tests thus far.
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Do you think this memo doesn't deserve to be investigated further?
    Absolutely it does!! And to me that's the whole point, before a judgement can be made one way of the other it needs to be investigated. To believe it on it's face is to act as the very sheep you describe.
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