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  1. #621  
    Dear Hobbes, so much for your thoughts, according to the ap, they think Iraq is on the verge of a civial war, read the following:

    46 Bodies Found in Wave of Iraqi Violence By ALEXANDRA ZAVIS, Associated Press Writer
    1 hour, 11 minutes ago



    A major Sunni Arab bloc Thursday suspended talks with Shiite and Kurdish parties on a new government after scores of Sunni mosques were attacked and dozens of bodies found in a wave of reprisal violence following the bombing of a revered Shiite shrine.

    Violence continued Thursday with an attack on a Sunni mosque in Baqouba, where eight Iraqi soldiers were killed in a bombing and nearly a dozen people were wounded.

    Faced with the grim prospect of sectarian war, the government extended the curfew in Baghdad and Salaheddin province for two days in the wake of Wednesday's attack on the Askariya shrine in Samarra. All leaves for Iraqi soldiers and police were canceled and personnel were ordered to report to their units.

    Radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr slammed the Iraqi government and U.S. forces for not protecting the Samarra shrine, also known as the Golden Mosque, and ordered his militia to defend Shiite holy sites across Iraq.

    "If the government had real sovereignty, then nothing like this would have happened," al-Sadr said a statement. "Brothers in the Mahdi Army must protect all Shiite shrines and mosques, especially in Samarra."

    At least 46 bodies were found scattered across Iraq late Wednesday and early Thursday, many of them shot execution-style and dumped in Shiite-dominated parts of the capital, Baghdad.

    They included a prominent Al-Arabiya TV female correspondent and two other Iraqi journalists, who had been covering Wednesday's explosion in Samarra. Their bullet-riddled bodies were found on the outskirts of the mostly Sunni Arab city 60 miles north of Baghdad.

    In mostly Shiite Basra, police said militiamen broke into a prison, hauled out 12 inmates, including two Egyptians, two Tunisians, a Libyan, a Saudi and a Turk, and shot them dead in reprisal for the shrine attack. They had been held in Basra after trying to leave the country following the 2004 U.S. attack on the insurgent stronghold of Fallujah.

    The destruction of Samarra's gleaming dome of the 1,200-year-old Askariya shrine sent crowds of angry Shiites into the streets. Many included members of al-Sadr's Mahdi Army and other Shiite militias which the U.S. wants abolished.

    The hardline Sunni clerical Association of Muslim Scholars said 168 Sunni mosques were attacked, 10 imams killed and 15 abducted. The figures could not be independently confirmed.

    In Thursday's violence, unidentified assailants fired machine guns and threw hand grenades at the Abu Ayoub al-Ansari mosque in Baqouba, about 35 miles northeast of Baghdad. At least one mosque employee was killed and two others injured, police said.

    The eight Iraqi soldiers died when a bomb exploded near their patrol in the center of the city, the army said.

    Also Thursday, thousands of protesters carrying Shiite flags and banners marched through parts of Baghdad and the Shiite holy city of Najaf. Shiite leaders called upon the people of Najaf to go to Samarra to defend the shrine.

    Many religious and political leaders called for calm. "We are facing a major conspiracy that is targeting Iraq's unity," President Jalal Talabani said Wednesday. "We should all stand hand in hand to prevent the danger of a civil war."

    Talabani, a Kurd, summoned political leaders to a meeting Thursday to ensure the violence does not derail talks aimed at forming a national unity government after December parliamentary elections. The negotiations — which U.S. and Iraqi leaders hope will help dent the deadly Sunni-driven insurgency — have bogged down over sharp differences between Iraq's Shiite, Kurdish and Sunni Arab parties.

    Spokesmen for the Iraqi Accordance Front, the main Sunni Arab faction, said they would not attend Talabani's meeting and would freeze talks with Kurdish and Shiite parties pending an apology for reprisal attacks against more Sunni mosques.

    "We want a clear condemnation from the government which didn't do enough yesterday to curb those angry mobs," said Dr. Salman al-Jumaili, a member of the Accordance Front. "There was even a kind of cooperation with the government security forces in some places in attacking the Sunni mosques."

    U.S. military units in the Baghdad area were told Thursday morning to halt all but essential travel. Commanders feared that convoys might be caught up in demonstrations or road blocks.

    President Bush pledged American help to restore the mosque after the bombing, which dealt a severe blow to U.S. efforts to keep Iraq from falling deeper into sectarian violence.

    "The terrorists in Iraq have again proven that they are enemies of all faiths and of all humanity," Bush said. "The world must stand united against them, and steadfast behind the people of Iraq."

    No one was reported injured in the bombing of the shrine in Samarra. But dozens of people, including three Sunni clerics, were killed in the reprisal attacks that followed, mainly in Baghdad and predominantly Shiite provinces to the south.

    The country's top Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, sent instructions to his followers forbidding attacks on Sunni mosques and called for seven days of mourning.

    But he hinted, as did Vice President Adil Abdul-Mahdi, that religious militias could be given a bigger security role if the government cannot protect holy shrines — an ominous sign of the Shiite reaction ahead.

    Mosque Attack Pushes Iraq Toward Civil War By ZIAD KHALAF, Associated Press Writer
    Wed Feb 22, 6:38 PM ET



    Insurgents posing as police destroyed the golden dome of one of Iraq's holiest Shiite shrines Wednesday, setting off an unprecendented spasm of sectarian violence. Angry crowds thronged the streets, militiamen attacked Sunni mosques, and at least 19 people were killed.

    With the gleaming dome of the 1,200-year-old Askariya shrine reduced to rubble, some Shiites lashed out at the United States as partly to blame.

    The violence — many of the 90 attacks on Sunni mosques were carried out by Shiite militias — seemed to push Iraq closer to all-out civil war than at any point in the three years since the U.S.-led overthrow of Saddam Hussein.

    Many leaders called for calm. "We are facing a major conspiracy that is targeting Iraq's unity," said President Jalal Talabani, a Kurd. "We should all stand hand in hand to prevent the danger of a civil war."

    President Bush pledged American help to restore the mosque after the bombing north of Baghdad, which dealt a severe blow to U.S. efforts to keep Iraq from falling deeper into sectarian violence.

    "The terrorists in Iraq have again proven that they are enemies of all faiths and of all humanity," Bush said. "The world must stand united against them, and steadfast behind the people of Iraq."

    British Prime Minister Tony Blair also condemned the bombing and pledged funds toward the shrine's reconstruction.

    U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad and the top American commander in Iraq, Gen. George Casey, called the attack a deliberate attempt to foment sectarian strife and warned it was a "critical moment for Iraq."

    No one was reported injured in the bombing of the shrine in Samarra.

    But at least 19 people, including three Sunni clerics, were killed in the reprisal attacks that followed, mainly in Baghdad and predominantly Shiite provinces to the south, according to the Iraqi Islamic Party, the country's largest Sunni political group.

    Many of the attacks appeared to have been carried out by Shiite militias that the United States wants to see disbanded.

    In predominantly Shiite Basra, police said militiamen broke into a prison, hauled out 12 inmates, including two Egyptians, two Tunisians, a Libyan, a Saudi and a Turk, and shot them dead in reprisal for the shrine attack.

    Major Sunni groups joined in condemning the attack, and a leading Sunni politician, Tariq al-Hashimi, urged clerics and politicians to calm the situation "before it spins out of control."

    The country's top Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, sent instructions to his followers forbidding attacks on Sunni mosques, and called for seven days of mourning.

    But he hinted, as did Vice President Adil Abdul-Mahdi, that religious militias could be given a bigger security role if the government cannot protecting holy shrines — an ominous sign of the Shiite reaction ahead.

    Both Sunnis and the United States fear the rise of such militias, which the disaffected minority views as little more than death squads. American commanders believe they undercut efforts to create a professional Iraqi army and police force — a key step toward the eventual drawdown of U.S. forces.

    Some Shiite political leaders already were angry with the United States because it has urged them to form a government in which nonsectarian figures control the army and police. Khalilzad warned this week — in a statement clearly aimed at Shiite hard-liners — that America would not continue to support institutions run by sectarian groups with links to armed militias.

    One top Shiite political leader accused Khalilzad of sharing blame for the attack on the shrine in Samarra.

    "These statements ... gave green lights to terrorist groups. And, therefore, he shares in part of the responsibility," said Abdul-Aziz al-Hakim, head of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq and the former commander of its militia.

    The interior minister, who controls the security forces that Sunnis accuse of widepsread abuses, is a member of al-Hakim's party.

    The new tensions came as Iraq's various factions have been struggling to assemble a government after the Dec. 15 parliamentary elections.

    The Shiite fury sparked by Wednesday's bombings — the third major attack against Shiite targets in as many days — raised the likelihood that Shiite religious parties will reject U.S. demands to curb militias.

    The Askariya shrine, also known as the Golden Mosque, contains the tombs of two revered Shiite imams, who are considered by Shiites to be among the successors of the Prophet Muhammad.

    No group claimed responsibility for the 6:55 a.m. assault on the shrine in Samarra, a mostly Sunni Arab city 60 miles north of Baghdad, carried out by four insurgents disguised as police. But suspicion fell on Sunni extremist groups.

    The top of the dome, which was completed in 1905, collapsed into a crumbly mess, leaving just traces of gold showing through the rubble. Part of the shrine's tiled northern wall also was damaged.

    Thousands of demonstrators crowded near the wrecked shrine, and Iraqis picked through the debris, pulling out artifacts and copies of the Muslim holy book, the Quran, which they waved, along with Iraqi flags.

    "This criminal act aims at igniting civil strife," said Mahmoud al-Samarie, a 28-year-old builder. "We demand an investigation so that the criminals who did this be punished. If the government fails to do so, then we will take up arms and chase the people behind this attack."

    U.S. and Iraqi forces surrounded the Samarra shrine and searched nearby houses. About 500 soldiers were sent to Sunni neighborhoods in Baghdad to prevent clashes.

    On Al-Jazeera television, Sunni politician Adnan al-Dulaimi pledged that the violence would not discourage Sunnis from working to form a new government and claimed the Samarra attack was not planned by Sunni insurgents but "a foreign hand aiming to create differences among Iraqis."

    National Security Adviser Mouwafak al-Rubaie said 10 people were detained for questioning about the bombing. The Interior Ministry put the number at nine and said they included five guards.

    In the hours after the attack, more than 90 Sunni mosques were attacked with automatic rifles and rocket-propelled grenades, burned or taken over by Shiites, the Iraqi Islamic Party said.

    Large protests erupted in Shiite parts of Baghdad and in cities throughout the Shiite heartland to the south. In Basra, Shiite militants traded rifle and rocket-propelled grenade fire with guards at the office of the Iraqi Islamic Party. Smoke billowed from the building.

    Shiite protesters later set fire to a Sunni shrine containing the seventh century tomb of Talha bin Obeid-Allah, a companion of Muhammad, on the outskirts of Basra.

    Protesters in Najaf, Kut and Baghdad's Shiite slum of Sadr City also marched through the streets by the thousands, many shouting anti-American and anti-Israeli slogans and burning those nations' flags.

    Tradition says the Askariya shrine, which draws Shiite pilgrims from throughout the Islamic world, is near the place where the last of the 12 Shiite imams, Mohammed al-Mahdi, disappeared. Al-Mahdi was the son and grandson of the two imams buried in the Askariya shrine. Shiites believe he is still alive and will return to restore justice to humanity.
    Please Support Research into Fibromyalgia, Chronic Pain and Spinal Injuries. If You Suffer from These, Consider Joining or Better Yet Forming a Support Group. No One Should Suffer from the Burden of Chronic Pain, Jay M. S. Founder, Leesburg Fibromyalgia/Resources Group
  2. #622  
    We are now up to 95 people, but Hobbes says the viloence is settling down and we should be in Iraq. The issue now is can we stop a civil war or is too late??? Take care, Jay

    Sectarian Fury Turns Violent in Wake of Iraq Shrine Blast
    By EDWARD WONG and ROBERT F. WORTH
    BAGHDAD, Iraq, Feb. 23 - At least 95 people, some of them prominent Sunni Arab clerics, were killed in revenge in Baghdad and the surrounding areas in the chaotic 24 hours following the bombing Wednesday morning of one of Shiite Islam's holiest shrines, in the town of Samarra, an Interior Ministry official said today. More bodies were being discovered throughout the day across Iraq.

    Sunni Arab politicians broke off talks with Shiite and Kurdish leaders over the formation of a new government, saying they would not engage in discussions until those responsible for the attacks on Sunnis had been brought to justice.

    At least 16 Iraqis were killed, half of them soldiers, when a powerful bomb exploded by an Iraqi Army patrol this morning northeast of the capital, in the volatile provincial capital of Baquba. At least 20 people were injured.

    Thousands of Shiites took to the streets across Iraq in a second day of protests against the insurgent attack in Samarra, which destroyed the golden dome of the Al Askariya shrine, the burial place of two revered Shiite imams. The protests today were largely peaceful, though the crowds expressed unbridled fury. In Baghdad, militiamen loyal to firebrand Shiite cleric Moktada al-Sadr helped organize some of the most vocal demonstrations.

    Three journalists working for the Al Arabiya network were ambushed and killed by gunmen on the outskirts of Samarra on Wednesday as they were reporting on the shrine bombing, the network said today.

    The attack on the shrine has sparked the worst sectarian conflict in Iraq since the American invasion, with Iraqi leaders and clerics calling for restraint and trying to steer the country away from exploding into full-fledged civil war. The top American military commanders and the American ambassador, Zalmay Khalilzad, have been talking with Iraqi leaders to try to defuse the groundswell of anger among Sunni and Shiite Arabs.

    Of the 95 bodies discovered since the bombing, 48 were in Baghdad, believed to be Sunnis living in or near Shiite enclaves, the interior ministry official said. The other 47 were found in a farming area south of Baghdad called Nahrawan, where Shiite militiamen and Sunni fighters clashed last fall in a battle that left dozens dead.

    The violence began on Wednesday morning, when a powerful bomb shattered the golden dome of the Al Askariya shrine and set off a day of sectarian fury in which mobs formed across Iraq to chant for revenge and attacked dozens of Sunni mosques.

    The bombing, 60 miles north of Baghdad, wounded no one but left the famous golden dome at the site in ruins. The shrine is central to one of the most dearly held beliefs of Shiite Islam, and the bombing, coming after two days of bloody attacks that have left dozens of Shiite civilians dead, ignited a nationwide outpouring of rage and panic that seemed to bring Iraq closer than ever to outright civil war.

    Shiite militia members flooded the streets of Baghdad, firing rocket-propelled grenades and machine guns at Sunni mosques while Iraqi Army soldiers who had been called out to stop the violence stood helpless nearby. By the day's end, mobs had struck or destroyed 27 Sunni mosques in the capital, killing three imams and kidnapping a fourth, Interior Ministry officials said.

    Thousands of grief-stricken people in Samarra crowded into the shrine's courtyard after the bombing, some weeping and kissing the fallen stones, others angrily chanting, "Our blood and souls we sacrifice for you, imams!"

    Iraq's major political and religious leaders issued urgent appeals for restraint, and Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari called for a three-day mourning period in a televised address. Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, Iraq's most senior Shiite cleric, released an unusually strong statement in which he said, "If the government's security forces cannot provide the necessary protection, the believers will do it."

    Most Iraqi leaders attributed the attack to terrorists bent on exploiting sectarian rifts, but some also blamed the United States for failing to prevent it. Even the leader of Iraq's main Shiite political alliance said he thought Mr. Khalilzad, the American ambassador, bore some responsibility. The Shiite leader, Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, said Mr. Khalilzad's veiled threat on Monday to withdraw American support if Iraqis could not form a nonsectarian government helped provoke the bombing. "This declaration gave a green light for these groups to do their operation, so he is responsible for a part of that," Mr. Hakim said at a news conference.

    The shrine bombing came as Iraq's political leaders continued to struggle under heavy American pressure to agree on the principles of a new national unity government. As in past moments of political transition here, violence has mounted during the uncertainty, and the attacks, mostly against Shiite civilians, seemed aimed specifically at creating more conflict between Iraq's Shiite, Kurdish and Sunni Arab populations. That effort had at least a momentary success on Wednesday, and the streets of the capital emptied as Iraqis hurried home early, fearing further attacks by Shiite militia members or possible reprisals by Sunni Arabs.

    Mr. Khalilzad issued a joint statement on Wednesday with Gen. George W. Casey Jr., the top American commander in Iraq, in which he deplored the bombing as a "crime against humanity" and pledged American help in rebuilding the dome. In Washington, President Bush issued a statement extending his sympathy to Iraqis. "The United States condemns this cowardly act in the strongest possible terms," Mr. Bush said. "I ask all Iraqis to exercise restraint in the wake of this tragedy, and to pursue justice in accordance with the laws and Constitution of Iraq."

    Mr. Sadr, whose Mahdi Army militia led many of the violent protests on Wednesday, placed some blame on what he called the "occupation forces" for the bombing but did not give more details. Mr. Sadr told the Arabic satellite network Al Jazeera that he was cutting short his visit in Lebanon because of the bombing.

    The attack in Samarra began at 7 a.m., when a dozen men dressed in paramilitary uniforms entered the shrine and handcuffed four guards who were sleeping in a back room, a spokesman for the provincial governor's office said. The attackers then placed a bomb in the dome and detonated it, collapsing most of the structure and heavily damaging an adjoining wall.

    The shrine is one of four major Shiite shrines in Iraq, and the site has special meaning because 2 of the 12 imams revered by mainstream Shiites are buried there: Ali al-Hadi, who died in A.D. 868 and his son, the 11th imam, Hassan al-Askari. Also, according to legend, the 12th Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi, known as the "Hidden Imam," was at the site of the shrine before he disappeared.

    These figures resonate with Iraqi Shiites, whose traditions have long been shaped by violence with the rival Sunni sect. At an earlier time of rising tensions, the 10th imam was forced from his home in Medina by the powerful Sunni caliph in Baghdad and was sent to live in Samarra, where he could be kept under closer supervision. Both he and his son were believed to have been poisoned by the caliphate.

    Fearing such persecution, Muhammad al-Mahdi, who was just a child when he became the 12th imam, was hidden away in a cave, where he held forth through intermediaries for about 70 years. Then he is said to have gone into what Shiites call occultation, a kind of suspended state from which it is believed he will return before the Judgment Day to bring justice during a time of chaos.

    No group claimed responsibility for the attack, but some Iraqi officials pointed a finger at Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, the terrorist group believed to be responsible for many of the attacks on Shiite civilians and mosques in the past two years.

    Samarra's population is mostly Sunni Arab, and it was a haven for insurgents until 2004, when American and Iraqi troops carried out a major operation to retake the city and the Golden Mosque from guerrilla fighters. But the insurgents have filtered back since then, and American troops in and around the city are now regularly attacked.

    Shops soon closed across the country as angry mobs filled the streets. In Kirkuk, about a thousand Shiites marched in the streets, chanting against America, members of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party, and Takfiris, a word used to describe militant Islamists who denounce other Muslims as infidels. Similar demonstrations broke out in Baquba, Najaf, Karbala, and other cities. In the southern Shiite city of Basra, Shiite militia members damaged at least two Sunni mosques, killing an imam, and launched an attack on the headquarters of Iraq's best-known Sunni Arab political party. One man was killed in the gun battle that ensued and 14 were wounded, the police said.

    Later, the Basra police took 10 foreign Arabs who had been jailed in connection with terrorist attacks from their cells and shot them dead, apparently in retaliation for the shrine bombing, a police official said.

    Ayatollah Sistani issued another statement on Wednesday warning the faithful not to attack any Sunni holy sites. But it was too late: angry mobs had already begun shooting and firing rocket-propelled grenades, and setting some mosques on fire. Imams at three Baghdad mosques — Al Sabar, Al Yaman, and Al Rashidi — were killed, Interior Ministry officials said. A fourth imam, Sheik Abdul Qadir Sabih Nori of the Amjed al-Zahawi mosque, was kidnapped, the officials said.

    Sunni Arab political leaders mixed their denunciations of the shrine bombing with anger at the attacks on Sunni mosques. Tarik al-Hashimi, the leader of the Iraq Islamic Party, Iraq's best-known Sunni political group, urged Iraqis to "confront the criminals and put a stop to these crimes before it is too late."

    In Sadr City, the vast Shiite slum in Baghdad, flatbed trucks bristled with black-clad militia fighters carrying guns. Leaning out car windows, men with grenade launchers pointed them menacingly.

    "If I could find the people who did this, I would cut him into pieces," said Abdel Jaleel al-Sudani, a 50-year-old employee of the Health Ministry, who said he had marched in a demonstration earlier. "I would rather hear of the death of a friend than to hear this news."
    Please Support Research into Fibromyalgia, Chronic Pain and Spinal Injuries. If You Suffer from These, Consider Joining or Better Yet Forming a Support Group. No One Should Suffer from the Burden of Chronic Pain, Jay M. S. Founder, Leesburg Fibromyalgia/Resources Group
  3. #623  
    Quote Originally Posted by ilovedessert
    We are now up to 95 people, but Hobbes says the viloence is settling down and we should be in Iraq. The issue now is can we stop a civil war or is too late??? Take care, Jay
    I love it....I point to current published trends and data and it is "Hobbes says that....."

    I seriously doubt if there was a 5 month period of extreme rise in terrorist attacks you would toss it aside and say, "never mind that....it just goes in cycles" as you did when it showed significant decrease in violence. Heck you jumped on the violence bandwagon on the first DAY of increased attacks. I do tend to lean to look at the larger picture without the issues of having to defend a party or specific point.

    AGAIN, please try to understand, I have never denied that violence will not continue, only pointed to the trend at the time I posted it with a 5 month history.

    There are first time positives of this situation that for the first time many of the religious leaders are actually standing up against the violence! This is a huge step. Though some younger more aggressive antipeace figures are still yelling louder. The Iraqis are also taking steps to control the situation (i.e. establishing a night time curfew then expanding to day time restrictions as well, providing huge amount of Iraqi force security, etc...). They are acting in an organized fashion as a gov should. They re acting totally on their own on this as the US has not wanted to appear to take sides in the situation so far. Though they obviously are still establishing themselves as a gov and so may or may not be up to this challenge.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 02/26/2006 at 01:31 AM.
  4. #624  
    well hobbes, it is over two hundred and counting and that is with a 24 hour a day curfew. all over the web at all of the news sites, liberal and conserve. they are all taking the verge of civil war. Including the PM of Iraq. so give it up....Jay
    Please Support Research into Fibromyalgia, Chronic Pain and Spinal Injuries. If You Suffer from These, Consider Joining or Better Yet Forming a Support Group. No One Should Suffer from the Burden of Chronic Pain, Jay M. S. Founder, Leesburg Fibromyalgia/Resources Group
  5. #625  
    Jay....that is the point....There is nothing for me to give up....you are picking on a point I made BEFORE this started! I have never said this is a NOT a huge issue and concern! I am VERY concerned about what is happening and VERY aware of the potential outcomes of it.

    You are harping on a me for simply pointing out a study that CNN brought to my attention the day before I posted about it here. I simply stated a fact. That was it. No major ideological line drawn in the sand. Nothing to do with what it happening now. Nothing to do with possible Civil War or any possibility of religious unity in the Iraq or the Middle East or the means by which any of this will happen now or in the future to bring it about.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 02/26/2006 at 01:23 PM.
  6. #626  
    Hobbes the piont you seem to be missing is this,...what is happening now is the enevitable conclusion for going otno Iraq in the 1st place. We are now starting to see the end result a slide down the sloppe of a civil war, that most likely will spead well beyond the borders of Iraq, (after all Osama and him drones just tried to balm ion Iraq pipeline).

    Yes your comments were made before this viloence, however, it was naive of you and the politions who thought we would be in and out in a few weeks. The Iraq's woudl hoist us on their shoulders...etc... The bottom line is Papa Bush was right,...we should have completely taken over Iraq then or now.

    Now we either have to pull out and see this thing blow up or stay their and see it blow up with us along with it.

    The big picture is that Bush did nto think of the consequences of what he was doing, becuase he is nto the brightest bulb out there and he beleive the BS that his veep and others told him. He is not suited for the job and the business this wek of him saying he did not know about the deal about the ports, or he did not know about how bad Katria would be...he is not suite dofr the job he is in way over his head and the olny reason he is in the job is b/c the played to the Chriustian right about a bunch of frankly now turns out to be BS.

    To aks the question that another fioolish prez asked...:are we better of than we were 4 years ago, the answer is no!
    Please Support Research into Fibromyalgia, Chronic Pain and Spinal Injuries. If You Suffer from These, Consider Joining or Better Yet Forming a Support Group. No One Should Suffer from the Burden of Chronic Pain, Jay M. S. Founder, Leesburg Fibromyalgia/Resources Group
  7. #627  
    NOW IT SEEMS THAT 1300 PEOPLE HAVE DIED SINCE THE DOME BOMBING, AND THAT IS NTO COUNTING TODAYS AT LEAST 50 PEOPLE. THIS IS ALL THE LOGICAL CONCULSION FOR GOING INTO IRAQ IN THE 1ST PLACE. TAKE CARE, JAY Toll in Iraq's Deadly Surge: 1,300
    Morgue Count Eclipses Other Tallies Since Shrine Attack

    By Ellen Knickmeyer and Bassam Sebti
    Washington Post Foreign Service
    Tuesday, February 28, 2006; A01



    BAGHDAD, Feb. 27 -- Grisly attacks and other sectarian violence unleashed by last week's bombing of a Shiite Muslim shrine have killed more than 1,300 Iraqis, making the past few days the deadliest of the war outside of major U.S. offensives, according to Baghdad's main morgue. The toll was more than three times higher than the figure previously reported by the U.S. military and the news media.

    Hundreds of unclaimed dead lay at the morgue at midday Monday -- blood-caked men who had been shot, knifed, garroted or apparently suffocated by the plastic bags still over their heads. Many of the bodies were sprawled with their hands still bound -- and many of them had wound up at the morgue after what their families said was their abduction by the Mahdi Army, the Shiite militia of cleric Moqtada al-Sadr.

    "After he came back from the evening prayer, the Mahdi Army broke into his house and asked him, 'Are you Khalid the Sunni infidel?' " one man at the morgue said, relating what were the last hours of his cousin, according to other relatives. "He replied yes and then they took him away."

    Aides to Sadr denied the allegations, calling them part of a smear campaign by unspecified political rivals.

    By Monday, violence between Sunni Arabs and Shiites appeared to have eased. As Iraqi security forces patrolled, American troops offered measured support, in hopes of allowing the Iraqis to take charge and prevent further carnage.

    But at the morgue, where the floor was crusted with dried blood, the evidence of the damage already done was clear. Iraqis arrived throughout the day, seeking family members and neighbors among the contorted bodies.

    "And they say there is no sectarian war?" demanded one man. "What do you call this?"

    The brothers of one missing man arrived, searching for a body. Their hunt ended on the concrete floor, provoking sobs of mourning: "Why did you kill him?" "He was unarmed!" "Oh, my brother! Oh, my brother!"

    Morgue officials said they had logged more than 1,300 dead since Wednesday -- the day the Shiites' gold-domed Askariya shrine was bombed -- photographing, numbering and tagging the bodies as they came in over the nights and days of retaliatory raids.

    The Statistics Department of the Iraqi police put the nationwide toll at 1,020 since Wednesday, but that figure was based on paperwork that is sometimes delayed before reaching police headquarters. The majority of the dead had been killed after being taken away by armed men, police said.

    The disclosure of the death tolls followed accusations by the U.S. military and later Iraqi officials that the news media had exaggerated the violence between Shiites and Sunnis over the past few days.

    The bulk of the previously known deaths were caused by bombings and other large-scale attacks. But the scene at the morgue and accounts related by relatives indicated that most of the bloodletting came at the hands of self-styled executioners.

    "They killed him just because he was a Sunni," one young man at the morgue said of his 32-year-old neighbor, whose body he was retrieving.

    Much of the violence has centered on mosques, many of which were taken over by Shiite gunmen, bombed or burned.

    In the Shiite holy city of Najaf, aides to Sadr denied any role in the killings.

    "These groups wore black clothes like the Mahdi Army to make the people say that the Shiites kidnapped and killed them," said Riyadh al-Nouri, a close aide to Sadr.

    Sahib al-Amiri, another close aide, said: "Some political party accused [Sadr's political party] and the Mahdi Army because they considered us as competitive to them. So they recruited criminals to kill Shiites and Sunnis."

    After Wednesday's mosque attack in Samarra, Sadr and other Shiite clerics called on their armed followers to deploy to protect shrines across Iraq.

    Clutching rocket-propelled grenade launchers and automatic rifles, the militias rolled out of their Baghdad base of Sadr City. Residents of several neighborhoods reported them on patrol or in control of mosques. U.S.-backed Iraqi security forces did not appear to challenge the militias, which are officially outlawed.

    Sunni leaders charged that more than 100 Sunni mosques were burned, fired upon or bombed in the retaliatory violence after the attack on the Samarra mosque.

    Iraqi officials, at the urging of Sunni leaders, imposed what became a round-the-clock curfew in Baghdad to try to quell the violence.

    Sunnis speaking at the morgue said many of the dead had been taken away at night, when security forces were supposed to have been enforcing the curfew.

    By Monday, the reported violence had subsided. Four mortar rounds hit a Shiite neighborhood of Baghdad, killing four people, news agencies reported. More mortar attacks boomed in other parts of the capital.

    Also Monday, Iraq's interim government lifted the round-the-clock curfew in Baghdad. The new curfew orders residents inside from 8 p.m. to 6 a.m.

    Residents rushed out of their homes to refill gas tanks and kitchen shelves. Lines at gas stations stretched for miles and sometimes clogged both sides of highways. One motorist in the line was seen clutching a blanket and pillow, apparently anticipating an overnight wait for gas.

    Making their way through the traffic were a few cars with plastic-wrapped corpses in crude wooden coffins strapped to the roofs.

    During two hours at the morgue on Monday, families brought in two more victims of the violence to receive death certificates. Other families carried away 10 dead. Most of the victims were Sunni.

    At the blue steel doors of the morgue, dozens more bloody bodies could be seen on the floor or on gurneys. Two hundred were still unidentified and unclaimed, morgue workers said.

    Claiming the dead has become automated. Morgue workers directed families to a barred window in the narrow courtyard outside the main entrance. A computer screen angled to face the window flashed the contorted, staring faces of the dead: men shot in the mouth, men shot in the head, men covered with blood, men with bindings twisted around their necks.

    Men and a few women in black abayas pressed up to the window's black bars as the reek of the bodies inside spilled out.

    "What neighborhood?'' a morgue worker asked one waiting man.

    "Adhamiyah,'' the man said, naming a predominantly Sunni neighborhood.

    Tapping at the keyboard, the morgue worker fast-forwarded through the scores of tortured faces.

    "Criminals. How can you kill another human for nothing?" someone clutching the bars asked.

    "Good news, we found the body," another man called out. "We found him."

    Special correspondents K.I. Ibrahim in Baghdad and Saad Sarhan in Najaf, staff writer Nelson Hernandez and other Washington Post staff contributed to this report.


    © 2006 The Washington Post Company
    Please Support Research into Fibromyalgia, Chronic Pain and Spinal Injuries. If You Suffer from These, Consider Joining or Better Yet Forming a Support Group. No One Should Suffer from the Burden of Chronic Pain, Jay M. S. Founder, Leesburg Fibromyalgia/Resources Group
  8. cardio's Avatar
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    #628  
    ilovedessert, you are really into numbers of dead. Remember these numbers as you post comments on the current death total

    "Between 60,000 and 150,000 Iraqi dissidents and Shi'ite Muslims are estimated to have been killed during Hussein's reign. Over 100,000 Kurds were killed or "disappeared". (Mass graves discovered following the US occupation of Iraq in 2003 suggest that the total combined figure for Kurds, Shi'ites and dissidents killed could be as high as 300,000). Amnesty International estimates that at the time of Hussein's downfall in April 2003 there were about 300,000 Iraqi refugees around the world, with over 200,000 residing in Iran. Other sources claim between three and four million Iraqis, or about 15% of the population, fled the country seeking refuge."
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  9. #629  
    You do seem to blame everything....including the weather...on Bush. I do get a hint at the possibility that you don't like Bush very much.
    Quote Originally Posted by ilovedessert
    Hobbes the piont you seem to be missing is this,...what is happening now is the enevitable conclusion for going otno Iraq in the 1st place.
    You have failed to respond to my replies to this several times over in posts in this thread that all dealt with decisions made with the knowledge available AT THE TIME actions were taken:

    202: http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...&postcount=202

    264: http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...&postcount=264

    257: http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...&postcount=257

    289: http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...&postcount=289

    290: http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...&postcount=290

    296: http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...&postcount=296

    306: http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...&postcount=306

    311: http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...&postcount=311

    345: http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...&postcount=345

    517: http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...&postcount=517

    520: http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...&postcount=520

    532: http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...&postcount=532

    548: http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...&postcount=548

    572: http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...&postcount=572

    612: http://discuss.treocentral.com/showp...&postcount=612


    Quote Originally Posted by ilovedessert
    We are now starting to see the end result a slide down the sloppe of a civil war, that most likely will spead well beyond the borders of Iraq, (after all Osama and him drones just tried to balm ion Iraq pipeline).
    I think you mean in Saudi. But yes....any Action....and any Non-Action...can cause an explosion of events to go across any border in the Middle East, so yes, I would say that this is a safe statement. Look at the Cartoon situation...Egypt publishes them, with no reaction. The Danish publish them and people are killed, innocent business owner's buildings are burned, multimillion dollar bounties issued for targets, Arabs taking the original cartoons (adding 3 additional very offense cartoons that were not printed by the Danish simply to make it look worse than it originally was) and travelling around to stir up a response, etc....

    It is certainly a turning point time for Iraq right now. Only time will tell if ultimately the decision to go into Iraq was for better or worse. As pointed out several times over in Iraq since the fall of Saddam, you cannot take a snapshot in time and say...."See it is bad we went in" or "See everything is perfect since we went in".

    It may turn into a Civil War. That would put leave us three main choices (assuming no other obvious outside govs...like Iran...officially help one side):

    1) We support one side
    2) We support the other side
    3) We pull out and let them try to settle it.

    Even among all the violence, there are steps within the different factions to come to a truce. There is still a possibility that because of this current conflict that they may come to an official agreement that never would have been reached otherwise. It historically has happened several times over.

    The point is...for better or for worse, this is snapshot in time and cannot be the single moment of judgment of the whole situation. That is the point I think you are missing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ilovedessert
    Yes your comments were made before this viloence, however, it was naive of you and the politions who thought we would be in and out in a few weeks. The Iraq's woudl hoist us on their shoulders...etc...
    There you go again....putting words into my mouth that I never said!!!!! I never said I ever felt this would be a fast or that it would be easy. I have always stated that the Bush admin made major mistakes in planning, preparing, and execution after the fall of Saddam. But there are also a lot of good things that we have done there as well that cannot go unrecognized.

    You seem to ignore every statement I made against the Bush Admin. And you seem to take every statement in favor of a Bush Admin decision as a die hardcore fanatical loyalist comment. You are wrong in both cases.

    I am not sure if you can understand that I am not loyal to any party or politician......I don't care if it would have been Bush (I or II), Clinton (Bill or Hillary), or Kerry...given the evidence at the time the decision was made I would have supported it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ilovedessert
    The bottom line is Papa Bush was right,...we should have completely taken over Iraq then or now.
    Please cite where it was ever a goal in the first Gulf War to take over Iraq. That was never a goal or objective. You are simply twisting non existing facts to try to make some point.


    Quote Originally Posted by ilovedessert
    The big picture is that Bush did nto think of the consequences of what he was doing, becuase he is nto the brightest bulb out there and he beleive the BS that his veep and others told him.
    It is hard to hold a logical debate with obvious personal bias that could potentially blind any discussion of the facts. But if you ask this question AGAIN, here is the answer again...which you have ignored again:

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal in post #612
    Who said it did. One of the big reasons was the strong possibility that he has WMDs that he would be willing to share with others who would use them against us.

    Syria, is a huge threat and the same "Vacuum" would have been created there. Iran poses a major threat now and if we had gone after Iran, the same "vacuum" would have been created there as well....but several times worse IMHO.....and we still wouldn't know for sure if Saddam still had his bio or chem weapons or if he was developing nuke capabilities.

    Or if we have done nothing, could we not be facing an Iraq with unknown WMD capabilities AND and Iran with building nuke capabilities. What spot would we be in then?

    If you ask the questions about Iraq, you have to ask all the other questions that would have followed if we did not go in when we did.

    Quote Originally Posted by ilovedessert
    He is not suited for the job and the business this wek of him saying he did not know about the deal about the ports, or he did not know about how bad Katria would be...he is not suite dofr the job he is in way over his head and the olny reason he is in the job is b/c the played to the Chriustian right about a bunch of frankly now turns out to be BS.
    Again, there maybe valid points but your personal bias washes them out.

    As far as the ports is concerned, I do not approve of the way it was handled and look to several sources to blame...Homeland Security for not bring this Admin's attention...Admin not having regs or procedures to let something like this slip by....Admin not recommending a full re-review of the situation from the start.

    As far as Katrina is concerned....I also hold those who knew the potential problems of the dikes for the previous 15 years responsible for not preparing the known issues....The local gov for waiting until 12 hours prior to act when given several days notice....The State for not reacting immediately....FEMA for poor communication and organization....in addition to the Admin worrying more about stepping on peoples toes that were not getting the work done than just doing what needed to be done. This is not all in Bush's lap responsibility just because it sounds good because you hate him.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 02/28/2006 at 08:17 PM.
  10. #630  
    Wow, that must've taken a long time.
  11. #631  
    That's what happens with a being sick and bored at home alone!
  12. #632  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal

    1) We support one side
    2) We support the other side
    3) We pull out and let them try to settle it.

    Now there is a thought... does it have anything to do with the Iran-Contra scandal? Where's that picture of Rumsfeld and Saddam shaking hands...
    .
    .
    .Treo Pro on Sprint Check out www.treotricks.com, Audio jack fix.
  13. #633  
    Quote Originally Posted by nonobeez
    Now there is a thought... does it have anything to do with the Iran-Contra scandal? Where's that picture of Rumsfeld and Saddam shaking hands...
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Quote Originally Posted by nonobeez
    Who's side are we on anyway?
    As with anything in History, it depends on who is the lesser evil at the time. Sad but true.
    .
  14. #634  
    HObbes, I have made it no secret that I hate Bush, he is one of the worst prez we have ever had, Frankly the man does nto have the brains, the common sence and the moral forditute to be prez. He, and his veep both are so out of touch with the common person. (Ie. Shot gun cheney wants us all to start saving money. Hello, like we aren't saving for the heck of it. I was just talking to someone, who works as a union truck drive here in fla 5 days a week and then works 8 hours a day on his 2 days off at home depot, his wife is also working two jobs...they have to in order to help pay for college for thier children...Bush's proposed school loan program aren't helping, (BTW they were Bush supports, but nomore).

    Now back to the subject, yes I hate Bush and he is a liar and frankly not up to the job as prez. (Also see my comments after this artcile)

    Here is an example of him lying and also of him not having the slightest idea of what is going on in the real world. This is from the Wash Post, however, it is all over the web..


    Katrina Video Refuels Debate Over Response
    White House Issues Defense Of Bush's Handling of Storm

    By Peter Baker and Spencer S. Hsu
    Washington Post Staff Writers
    Friday, March 3, 2006; A01



    Three days after Hurricane Katrina wiped out most of New Orleans, President Bush appeared on television and said, "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." His staff has spent the past six months trying to take back, modify or explain away those 10 words.

    The release of a pre-storm video showing officials warning Bush during a conference call that the hurricane approaching the Gulf Coast posed a dire threat to the city and its levees has revived a dispute the White House had hoped to put behind it: Was the president misinformed, misspoken or misleading?

    The video leaves no doubt that key people in government did anticipate the breach of the levees, or at least the possibility. To critics, especially Democrats but even some Republicans, it reinforces the conclusion that the government at its highest levels failed to respond aggressively enough to the danger bearing down on New Orleans. To Bush aides, the seeming conflict between Bush's public statements and the private deliberations captured on tape reflects little more than an inartful statement opponents are exploiting for political purposes.

    "This makes it perfectly clear once again that this disaster was not out of the blue or unforeseeable," said Sen. David Vitter (R-La.), who has been critical of the handling of Katrina. "It was not only predictable, it was actually predicted. That's what makes the failures in response -- at the local, state and federal level -- all the more outrageous."

    As the debate reached a new boil, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff announced the resignation yesterday of Matthew Broderick, the department's director of operations coordination, who will leave March 31. Chertoff said Broderick wants to spend more time with his family, but he is the second person associated with the Katrina response to resign, following Michael D. Brown, who directed the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

    And in a sign of congressional concern over the fitful recovery, House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) and Majority Leader John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) were leading a bipartisan delegation yesterday on a three-day tour of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast region.

    In its substance, the video reveals nothing that was not already known from previously released transcripts and government investigations. But in politics, images carry a power far beyond written words, and the video, played again and again on cable television, instantly provided new fuel for an emotional debate.

    With midterm elections in the fall, such a video could return in the form of campaign commercials attacking Bush, and by extension Republicans, for losing an American city. In the shorter term, Bush advisers worry that it will reopen Katrina wounds and complicate the president's efforts to bring together quarreling parties to focus on reconstructing the city and region.

    "We're going back over very, very old ground," said White House spokesman Trent Duffy. "The real danger here is it threatens to unravel the good relations we've built with state and local officials."

    Echoing Bush's own later explanation, Duffy said yesterday that the president in his now-famous Sept. 1 comment did not mean that no one had ever anticipated breaches of the levees that guard New Orleans from flooding. Instead, Duffy said, Bush meant only that after the storm's landfall, many people believed New Orleans had escaped its most powerful winds.

    Reflecting the sensitivity of the controversy, the White House issued a three-page statement yesterday to "set the record straight" and defend the president's actions before, during and after the storm, and accusing Democrats of using the new video "to falsely attack the White House's Hurricane Katrina's response." The statement said the video showed that Bush was fully engaged and promising aid to state and local officials, and it cited other actions and testimony showing that the president was worried about the levees and ordering help. At the same time, it added that "he was not satisfied with the federal response."

    Broderick's actions have become part of the debate about that response. As head of the Homeland Security Operations Center, he acknowledged to Senate investigators last month that he went home the night of Aug. 29 aware of conflicting reports of levee failures, grasped their severity the next morning after 6 a.m., and notified Robert B. Stephan, an assistant secretary, at 11:30 a.m. Investigators later found that reports of levee breaches emerged from New Orleans starting at noon Aug. 29 and continued through the day.

    "That's a failure on my part not to have informed Mr. Stephan earlier," testified Broderick, a retired Marine general who began the center after 30 years in the military. "It's my job to make sure that everyone knows what's going on."

    In Senate testimony, Chertoff said that he trusted Broderick implicitly but added that "I would rather him reach me earlier with less-perfect information." Yesterday, Chertoff thanked Broderick for his service to the nation and praised him for "always demonstrating coolness in crisis and energy and integrity in the execution of his duties, under the most difficult circumstances."

    The video, obtained by the Associated Press, shows portions of an Aug. 28 conference call in which Brown warned that Katrina was, "to put it mildly, the big one" and the head of the National Hurricane Center suggested the levees were at risk. Bush offered a statement of support but asked no questions.

    "My reaction is that this video further points to the need for an independent commission" to investigate, said House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), who is among the lawmakers on this week's Gulf Coast tour. "What we are about is meeting the needs of people. The video is an eloquent statement. It speaks very clearly to the fact that there was a predictable tragedy that was about to befall the people of that region, and the administration's response was inadequate."

    Senate Appropriations Chairman Thad Cochran (R-Miss.) said he plans to hold as many four hearings on Bush's request for $19.8 billion in additional recovery funding. "We need more money," he said, "and we're going to get it."

    Hobbes, one other thing, so far 70% of the people do not want the port deal to go thru, if the numbers stay that high, then he should drop it, as he is SUPPOSED TO DO WHAT WE WANT!!!!

    The simple fact, that he says he did nto know about it until after the fact either shows,

    1. that his admistration doesn't keep him informed
    2. or that hie and/or his admistration are so out of touch with the desires of the Amer. people.
    or 3. that he lied, said he knew nothing about it, just as he said that " Three days after Hurricane Katrina wiped out most of New Orleans, President Bush appeared on television and said, "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." The simple fact is that he looks like a liar or a simpleton. Also you know what thye say, lie once, shame on you, lie twice shame on me"!

    Frankly he just isn't up to the job, he knew of the dangers of Katrina and he was too busy plucking the strings of that stupid gituar that he was given, while people were dying, suffer and lossing everything or while he was riding his bike while the same thing was going on.

    Do you know thta his advisors told him after his numbers dropped due to Katrina, the told him he could nto go back to the ranch again until the holidays.

    Also you should do a web search of his comment sot his staff, while he was at the ranch, (actually it loks rather dumpy to me). He had a number of meltdowns over one woman, wanting to speak to him over the war,. He was yelling, using foul language and carrying on. This is not what we wanted in a prez.

    Then there was the ethics promise he made to us. He said,m this would be an honest admis., his eaxct quote is all over the web, yet look at the investigations going on around him. He has been all over the map over Abrahoff, claims he hardly knows him, yet it seems like there is much more to come out. Then there is the CIA leak investigation. (Besides aftet this new revelation about what he said about Katrina and what actually happened, I no longer given him the benifit of the doubt on believing him).
    Please Support Research into Fibromyalgia, Chronic Pain and Spinal Injuries. If You Suffer from These, Consider Joining or Better Yet Forming a Support Group. No One Should Suffer from the Burden of Chronic Pain, Jay M. S. Founder, Leesburg Fibromyalgia/Resources Group
  15. #635  
    Quote Originally Posted by ilovedessert
    Three days after Hurricane Katrina wiped out most of New Orleans, President Bush appeared on television and said, "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees."
    I don't think that was a lie. After all he said "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees."

    Doesn't it seem likely that he indeed didn't think that? I mean, thinking about that would involve remembering what he was told in a video conference two days earlier.

    OR of course he indeed did remeber it, but then it would have been a lie...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  16. #636  
    Bush=Professional lier. He's the only one perfect for his own job.
    I'm so Great I'm jealous of myself!
  17. cardio's Avatar
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    #637  
    I am shocked it took so long for the buch haters to post this. I am not shocked however that they did not include this part

    WASHINGTON (AP) -- As Hurricane Katrina loomed over the Gulf Coast, federal and state officials agonized over the threat to levees and lives. Hours after the catastrophic storm hit, Louisiana's governor believed New Orleans' crucial floodwalls were still intact.

    "We keep getting reports in some places that maybe water is coming over the levees," Gov. Kathleen Blanco said shortly after noon on Aug. 29 - the day the storm hit the Gulf coast.

    "We heard a report unconfirmed, I think, we have not breached the levee," she said on a video of the day's disaster briefing that was obtained Thursday night by The Associated Press. "I think we have not breached the levee at this time."

    I can't believe the President refused to read the mind of the local and state leaders, or that he did not realize they were lying to him when she said, I think the levees are ok.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  18. #638  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    I am shocked it took so long for the buch haters to post this. I am not shocked however that they did not include this part

    WASHINGTON (AP) -- As Hurricane Katrina loomed over the Gulf Coast, federal and state officials agonized over the threat to levees and lives. Hours after the catastrophic storm hit, Louisiana's governor believed New Orleans' crucial floodwalls were still intact.

    "We keep getting reports in some places that maybe water is coming over the levees," Gov. Kathleen Blanco said shortly after noon on Aug. 29 - the day the storm hit the Gulf coast.

    "We heard a report unconfirmed, I think, we have not breached the levee," she said on a video of the day's disaster briefing that was obtained Thursday night by The Associated Press. "I think we have not breached the levee at this time."

    I can't believe the President refused to read the mind of the local and state leaders, or that he did not realize they were lying to him when she said, I think the levees are ok.
    I can't believe he didn't read the minds of the local and state leaders as well. The man is a God to the Reublicans...then again his arrogance and disregard for the welfare of the american public only shows he's human. Even if he thinks he's above admitting when he's wrong. Go ahead and blame Brown.
    I'm so Great I'm jealous of myself!
  19. cardio's Avatar
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    #639  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBigBadWolf
    I can't believe he didn't read the minds of the local and state leaders as well. The man is a God to the Reublicans...then again his arrogance and disregard for the welfare of the american public only shows he's human. Even if he thinks he's above admitting when he's wrong. Go ahead and blame Brown.
    I see you were not tuned in when the Katrina discussions were rampant here. I blame all, local, state and feds. No one gets a pass on this from me, however many skip every level of gov't and say it was only Pres Bush who failed. WRONG ANSWER JOHNNY! Every level of gov't failed, those who were told to evacuate days earlier and elected to stay even though they had every oppurtunity and means failed, and not only did they fail, they made it worse for those who could not evacuate.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  20. #640  
    That doesn't even make sense. And it is 'liar'.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBigBadWolf
    Bush=Professional lier. He's the only one perfect for his own job.

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