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  1. #541  
    Look we are all missing a point her. Starting up with Iraq, at just the time that we did was a cover for the fact that we did not get ben laden. After all, while he was running for pres and after his full cabinat was seleted they spoke many times on this subject. You should do a search for comments of Don Evens former tresurery sect, who spoke at length of this when he left the adminstration. You also should give comments of our former sect of state after he left his post alng with his former aides comments> take care Jay
    Please Support Research into Fibromyalgia, Chronic Pain and Spinal Injuries. If You Suffer from These, Consider Joining or Better Yet Forming a Support Group. No One Should Suffer from the Burden of Chronic Pain, Jay M. S. Founder, Leesburg Fibromyalgia/Resources Group
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    #542  
    Quote Originally Posted by ilovedessert
    Look we are all missing a point her. Starting up with Iraq, at just the time that we did was a cover for the fact that we did not get ben laden. After all, while he was running for pres and after his full cabinat was seleted they spoke many times on this subject. You should do a search for comments of Don Evens former tresurery sect, who spoke at length of this when he left the adminstration. You also should give comments of our former sect of state after he left his post alng with his former aides comments> take care Jay
    You should review the UN resolutions that were defied.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
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  3. #543  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth

    There's plenty more there if you're interested. Human Rights Watch is hardly a part of the vast right wing conspiracy, and there's plenty on their site critical of the US. The point is, hopefully you'll realize just how nutty your position sounds.Cubans do suffer because of the embargo - an embargo that is in place because Castro is still Cuba's dictator.This is why his "land reforms" nationalized almost everyone's property? Some equality. Everyone is equally poor, oppressed, and miserable. Well everyone except party members, that is.How do you define harmony? Serbs, Croats and Kosovars all got along smashingly under Tito's dictatorship. Unfortunately once his boot was removed from their throats, they tried slitting each other's.I'm sure they'd take you if you wanted to live there. It was done during a time of war, but it was wrong. We apologized and paid reparations. What exactly does that have to do with anything? Just because we did something wrong in the past we can't do the right thing now? That type of argument makes for good bumper stickers, but really, really bad foreign policy.
    Just because Cuba people are poor, does not mean that they are unhappy and miserable. Money does not buy happiness... it has been poven by many studies

    http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/0....uwwo6evl.html

    I used to make six figures when I lived in Silicon valley and I was miserable. My company when belly up and I packed up and traveled. The 2-3 years I spent abroad in a 3ed world country where water leaked into my home and I didn't always have hot running water were the happiest years of my life. The people around me were rich and poor alike, and all pretty much equally happy.

    I didn't really have to worry abot money, but I was on a budget that was initally suppose to just last 6 months.

    Who are we americans to go to other countries and tell them how to live. Only if we can bully them do we fight them. Why does China get away with murder?

    Cuba is suffering but not because of poverty but because they can't even buy basic goods.

    Sorry to have abandonded the thread, but I had noticed it had run somewhat off topic
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  4. #544  
    Quote Originally Posted by ilovedessert
    Look we are all missing a point her. Starting up with Iraq, at just the time that we did was a cover for the fact that we did not get ben laden. After all, while he was running for pres and after his full cabinat was seleted they spoke many times on this subject. You should do a search for comments of Don Evens former tresurery sect, who spoke at length of this when he left the adminstration. You also should give comments of our former sect of state after he left his post alng with his former aides comments> take care Jay
    Noticed you still ignored my posts and changed to another topic.
  5. #545  
    hobbes, i lost your point amongst all of the other comments, please post again, if you would. Take care, jay
    Please Support Research into Fibromyalgia, Chronic Pain and Spinal Injuries. If You Suffer from These, Consider Joining or Better Yet Forming a Support Group. No One Should Suffer from the Burden of Chronic Pain, Jay M. S. Founder, Leesburg Fibromyalgia/Resources Group
  6. #546  
    Here are the posts......Post# 517 thru 523, then 532, and 544
  7. #547  
    It is ghe timin that I question more than enaything else. Funny how Bush all of a sudden change the subject from Osama to iraq, back when he was still promising to get him dead or alive.

    One also has to wonder if the problem we have with Iran now, us due to the up swing on terrorism, since this is a power vacuum in Oraq, due to us going into Iraq. Something Papa bush warned agaisnt when we were there last time.

    By the way,. i do have to complement you, thank you for keeping the conversation and tone polite. So often today, no matter waht one's view, the other side gets rude anf nasty. Thanks ofr stating your opinion , sticking to your guns and allowing me to do the same.

    Now if you excuse me, I have to try to cover more stuff in the garden. It is 25.5 degress here in Central Fl. which ironicly is colder than a a large portion of the NE. Take care, Jay
    Please Support Research into Fibromyalgia, Chronic Pain and Spinal Injuries. If You Suffer from These, Consider Joining or Better Yet Forming a Support Group. No One Should Suffer from the Burden of Chronic Pain, Jay M. S. Founder, Leesburg Fibromyalgia/Resources Group
  8. #548  
    This is pretty big news....why so little coverage? This has a direct relationship to those claiming Saddam was willing to come clean with his WMD weapons, programs to produce them, and his desire to obtain them again. This also has a an impact on the question about if expections were productive or not.

    EXCLUSIVE: The Secret Tapes -- Inside Saddam's Palace

    ABC News Obtains 12 Hours of Recordings of Saddam Hussein Meeting With Top Aides


    The tapes also reveal Iraq's persistent efforts to hide information about weapons of mass destruction programs from U.N. inspectors well into the 1990s. In one pivotal tape-recorded meeting, which occurred in late April or May of 1995, Saddam and his senior aides discuss the fact that U.N. inspectors had uncovered evidence of Iraq's biological weapons program — a program whose existence Iraq had previously denied.

    At one point Hussein Kamel, Saddam's son-in-law and the man who was in charge of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction efforts can be heard on the tapes, speaking openly about hiding information from the U.N.

    "We did not reveal all that we have," Kamel says in the meeting. "Not the type of weapons, not the volume of the materials we imported, not the volume of the production we told them about, not the volume of use. None of this was correct."

    ---------------------

    Rep. Pete Hoekstra, R-Mich., chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, says the tapes are authentic and show that "Saddam had a fixation on weapons of mass destruction and he had a fixation on hiding what he was doing from the U.N. inspectors." Hoeckstra says there are more than 35,000 boxes of such tapes and documents that the U.S. government has not analyzed nor made public that should also be translated and studied on an urgent basis.

    Charles Duelfer, who led the official U.S. search for weapons of mass destruction after the war, says the tapes show extensive deception but don't prove that weapons were still hidden in Iraq at the time of the U.S.-led war in 2003. "What they do is support the conclusion in the report, which we made in the last couple of years, that the regime had the intention of building and rebuilding weapons of mass destruction, when circumstances permitted."

    FULL STORY: http://www.abcnews.go.com/Nightline/...ory?id=1616996


    Saddam talked of WMD attack in U.S.
    Tapes show him ‘almost obsessed’ with weapons


    Among the treasure trove of information captured after Saddam Hussein's fall were tape recordings of the Iraqi leader discussing weapons of mass destruction with top aides.

    Transcripts of Saddam's tapes reviewed by NBC News show him ruminating about future terror attacks in the United States using weapons of mass destruction.

    ----------------

    An unidentified Saddam aide replies that biological weapons are easy to construct: “… any biologist can make it in water tank and kill 100,000 person … so you can’t accuse a country, one person can do it. One American person can do it in a house, next to the White House.”

    On another tape, Saddam says future terrorism will be with WMD. "It is possible in the future to see a booby trap and the explosion turns out to be nuclear, germ or chemical."

    U.S. intelligence analysts have confirmed to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence that Saddam’s voice on the audiotapes is authentic. The analysts believe most of the tapes were recorded in the ’90s, after the first Gulf War.

    “What the tapes show is that between the first gulf war and the second gulf war, Saddam Hussein had not lost his appetite for, or interest in, weapons of mass destruction,” says Gary Milhollin of the Wisconsin Project, an advocacy group working to slow the spread of weapons of mass destruction. “To the contrary, he was almost obsessed by them.’’

    Importantly, though, many U.S. intelligence experts say the 12 hours of tape does not solve the riddle of whether Iraq was hiding weapons of mass destruction before the 2003 U.S. invasion.

    “It certainly shows that he was trying to deceive the U.N., but it doesn't show that he actually had weapons in his possession at the time of the invasion,” says Bill Harlow, a former CIA spokesman and an NBC News

    In the transcripts, one of Saddam’s aides discusses filling missiles with germs. “Yes, the intention is that the missile will be filled with chemical or germ, and when it comes down it will cover a wider circle than the traditional missile,” the aide tells Saddam. Saddam replies: “That’s good, they are teaching us things that will be useful in the future.”

    Other aides seem to discuss hiding weapons from U.N. inspectors. “We have not told them the truth about the imported material,” one says. He adds, “Where was the nuclear material transported to? A number of them were transported out of Iraq.” He also says: “We will confess, but not to the biological program.”

    FULL STORY: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11373537/
  9. #549  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    This is pretty big news....why so little coverage? This has a direct relationship to those claiming Saddam was willing to come clean with his WMD weapons, programs to produce them, and his desire to obtain them again. This also has a an impact on the question about if expections were productive or not.

    EXCLUSIVE: The Secret Tapes -- Inside Saddam's Palace

    ABC News Obtains 12 Hours of Recordings of Saddam Hussein Meeting With Top Aides


    Saddam talked of WMD attack in U.S.
    Tapes show him ‘almost obsessed’ with weapons
    It's a good question Hobbes. I think part of it is that there are lots of things that seem contradictory so the MSM doesnt know how to report it.

    I.e. If he had lots of WMD's as he and his sons say, then where are they now. In another quote on this piece that I read, he stated that he had no interest in using WMD on the US but he did fear (and describe) someone using germ warfare released from a backpack in a major metropolitan city.

    The whole thing raises just more questions...
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  10. #550  
    I listened to an 30 min interview today of the guy who originally found this, listened to it, and translated it. This is where I first heard about this. He said that many of the MSM is actually reporting it wrong (or more accurately misinterrepting it) or with slants. For example he said that Saddam and his aides were actually discussing how to basically outsource attacks against the US through terrorist groups so that Iraq would not be fingered. They talked about how terrorist could make these attacks, IE. bio, chem, or nuke. They bragged about "how well we were able to hide" certain weapons that could be classified as WMDs.

    He was glad this information is getting out, but also frustrated at either the lack of attention it is getting and on how it is being reported.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 02/17/2006 at 02:54 AM.
  11. #551  
    I note DA and NRG are absent after this revelation.
  12. #552  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I listened to an 30 min interview today of the guy who originally found this, listened to it, and translated it. This is where I first heard about this. He said that many of the MSM is actually reporting it wrong (or more accurately misinterrepting it) or with slants. For example he said that Saddam and his aides were actually discussing how to basically outsource attacks against the US through terrorist groups so that Iraq would not be fingered. They talked about how terrorist could make these attacks, IE. bio, chem, or nuke. They bragged about "how well we were able to hide" certain weapons that could be classified as WMDs.

    He was glad this information is getting out, but also frustrated at either the lack of attention it is getting and on how it is being reported.
    If you watch the evening National news, this was covered. Everything I've read or heard about it shows what every one was talking about pre-invasion. No WMDs and cat and mouse games, likely to not confirm to his enemies he had no WMDs. No desire to produce WMDs. The awareness that terrorists would likely use WMDs in future attacks.
  13. #553  
    LOL! And here comes the leftward spin.

    Other translations lean toward a different interpretion...that Saddam was looking to outsource a terror campaign against the US. Maybe that explains Salman Pak. (Which, in DA's world view, existed to train Iraqi counter-terrorist forces.)
  14. #554  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    If you watch the evening National news, this was covered. Everything I've read or heard about it shows what every one was talking about pre-invasion. No WMDs and cat and mouse games, likely to not confirm to his enemies he had no WMDs.
    DA...I knew there would be a spin...WMDs or not.....your whole argument has been that the inspections were working, so we should have let them work for another decade. No you admit they were a cat and mouse game.

    Even if we take your argument at face value....which I do not think it is based on the reality of what is actually on the tapes....let's look at your stance:
    • Saddam did have WMDs as he has used them. No argument.
    • Saddam had a large quantity of WMDs that were on record that could never be confirmed of it's status. Blitx stated this in his last testimony and in interviews 8 months after.
    • Saddam proud of how he was able to lead the inspectors by the nose and manipulate them to not being able to confirm what he had done with them. Inspections clearly not effective or working.
    • Saddam threatening US that if we attacked he would use WMDs he currently claimed he did not have on our troops. (a statement of perfect logic for Saddam )
    • He admits to giving the impression he had WMDs to deter Iran (a statement I made over a year ago). How are we suppose if it is true or not? Oh ya....the inspectors that were being toyed with by Saddam.
    Okay...let's give him another 12 years since we have confirmed so much in the first 12.

    You throw in the fact of the Oil for Food scandal, and it was one big mess that had the potential of being a huge resource of terrorist orgs if Saddam so chooses to share his WMDs that he admitted to purposely lead us to believe he had.

    So, do you believe Saddam's lies or his lies about his lies?

    Again, this is a catch 22 perfect opportunity for those who hate Bush. If Bush did not act when everyone from every Intel agency in the world was saying Saddam had WMDs. When every major Rep AND Dem was saying Saddam had WMDs. Then Bush would be a villain because he did not protect us against overwhelming evidence at the time.

    If he did act and no WMDs were found the Dems withdraw their statements at the time and say that when Bush said the same them they did at the time he Lied and is unfit to be President.

    Hind sight history (re)writing with a political leaning or bias is dangerous for current events, IMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    No desire to produce WMDs.
    This is completely false. The guy who actually released these tapes said that there was no doubt at all about Saddam's intentions to produce more WMDs when the soonest opportunities permits. Read the links above for more on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    The awareness that terrorists would likely use WMDs in future attacks.
    This is a point I mentioned above that the guy who released the tapes had a concern with how the MSM was reporting what is actually on the tapes. He said that many MSM is reporting what you said.....which is true, ONLY if you continue with the second half of their discussion on this topic. And that is them talking about how they can help or make the terrorists orgs attack the US and not have any ties or fingers point back to Iraq. HUGE second part that must be added.
  15. #555  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    DA...I knew there would be a spin...WMDs or not.....your whole argument has been that the inspections were working, so we should have let them work for another decade. No you admit they were a cat and mouse game.

    Even if we take your argument at face value....which I do not think it is based on the reality of what is actually on the tapes....let's look at your stance:
    • Saddam did have WMDs as he has used them. No argument.
    • Saddam had a large quantity of WMDs that were on record that could never be confirmed of it's status. Blitx stated this in his last testimony and in interviews 8 months after.
    • Saddam proud of how he was able to lead the inspectors by the nose and manipulate them to not being able to confirm what he had done with them. Inspections clearly not effective or working.
    • Saddam threatening US that if we attacked he would use WMDs he currently claimed he did not have on our troops. (a statement of perfect logic for Saddam )
    • He admits to giving the impression he had WMDs to deter Iran (a statement I made over a year ago). How are we suppose if it is true or not? Oh ya....the inspectors that were being toyed with by Saddam.
    Okay...let's give him another 12 years since we have confirmed so much in the first 12.

    You throw in the fact of the Oil for Food scandal, and it was one big mess that had the potential of being a huge resource of terrorist orgs if Saddam so chooses to share his WMDs that he admitted to purposely lead us to believe he had.

    So, do you believe Saddam's lies or his lies about his lies?

    Again, this is a catch 22 perfect opportunity for those who hate Bush. If Bush did not act when everyone from every Intel agency in the world was saying Saddam had WMDs. When every major Rep AND Dem was saying Saddam had WMDs. Then Bush would be a villain because he did not protect us against overwhelming evidence at the time.

    If he did act and no WMDs were found the Dems withdraw their statements at the time and say that when Bush said the same them they did at the time he Lied and is unfit to be President.

    Hind sight history (re)writing with a political leaning or bias is dangerous for current events, IMHO.

    This is completely false. The guy who actually released these tapes said that there was no doubt at all about Saddam's intentions to produce more WMDs when the soonest opportunities permits. Read the links above for more on this.

    This is a point I mentioned above that the guy who released the tapes had a concern with how the MSM was reporting what is actually on the tapes. He said that many MSM is reporting what you said.....which is true, ONLY if you continue with the second half of their discussion on this topic. And that is them talking about how they can help or make the terrorists orgs attack the US and not have any ties or fingers point back to Iraq. HUGE second part that must be added.
    The cat and mouse game was working. I've always said that. Was it a dumb move by Hussein. Yes and no. He was buying time until he could replace his "supposed" weapons power with the economic power of being free to sell oil on the global market again.
  16. #556  
    Cat and Mouse working???? How can a process that is actively being flipped on it's head by Saddam working? He admits he was continually able to keep evidence away from the inspectors. He admits that he hid them so well that they will never find them. If it took 12 years to not be able to confirm the status of what we already know he already had, let alone what else he may have been able to produce or develop that we did not know about....how many more years would have been enough for you say...Enough is enough, "come clean or we will act the last one of the 56 'or elses' (no we really, really meant it this time) we approved in the UN sanctions"?

    Again....the evidence at the time was there. In an environment of legitimate concern of another worse attack on US soil. With Saddam pretending to be in a position to help terrorist do just that. Now shown that he wanted and planned to do just that.

    But the fact is now it is hard to say Bush acted on his "own Lies". One may always question the actions of those who did what they did with the knowledge they had at the time, but that is a question of choice not credibility or integrity as many on this thread has tried to make a case for.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 02/17/2006 at 12:42 PM.
  17. #557  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    But the fact is now it is hard to say Bush acted on his "own Lies". One may always question the actions of those who did what they did with the knowledge they had at the time, but that is a question of choice not credibility or integrity as many on this thread has tried to make a case for.
    Come on. Intelligence agents have come out and stated this admin wanted the intel to fit their agenda. Why are you clinging to this fanatsy that they were acting in the best interests of America based on the best intel available at the time?!!?

    It's simple. This administration had Iraq on their agenda, 9-11 gave them their opening. The horrible deaths of those people have been used to carry out that agenda and vengence for them placed on indefinite hold.

    Suks really.
  18. #558  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Come on. Intelligence agents have come out and stated this admin wanted the intel to fit their agenda. Why are you clinging to this fanatsy that they were acting in the best interests of America based on the best intel available at the time?!!?

    It's simple. This administration had Iraq on their agenda, 9-11 gave them their opening. The horrible deaths of those people have been used to carry out that agenda and vengence for them placed on indefinite hold.

    Suks really.
    Amen...my friend. Lets see Bush's daughters sign up to fight. Lets just hope he doesn't push his luck with Iran or N. Korea, as someone who has brothers in the Middle East as we speak I pray everyday nothing happens to them. By God if something did happen.... This war was about Dad's failure to secure Saddam. As I stated before, no one died when Clinton lied but they (republicans, confederates as I put it) did there best to get him impeached...ha,ha didn't happen. I'll continue to bash Bush and his administration and his supporters....worst president ever!!! Ever!!!

    The sadest part of all of this is a few people actually believe in this clown...I know they're not perfect but my God get a clue...and a life.
    I'm so Great I'm jealous of myself!
  19. #559  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBigBadWolf
    Amen...my friend. Lets see Bush's daughters sign up to fight. Lets just hope he doesn't push his luck with Iran or N. Korea, as someone who has brothers in the Middle East as we speak I pray everyday nothing happens to them. By God if something did happen.... This war was about Dad's failure to secure Saddam. As I stated before, no one died when Clinton lied but they (republicans, confederates as I put it) did there best to get him impeached...ha,ha didn't happen. I'll continue to bash Bush and his administration and his supporters....worst president ever!!! Ever!!!
    You ideologues crack me up! What are you talking about? Bush Sr. failed to secure Saddam?? What the Hell is that supposed to mean?
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  20. #560  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBigBadWolf
    Amen...my friend. Lets see Bush's daughters sign up to fight. Lets just hope he doesn't push his luck with Iran or N. Korea, as someone who has brothers in the Middle East as we speak I pray everyday nothing happens to them. By God if something did happen.... This war was about Dad's failure to secure Saddam. As I stated before, no one died when Clinton lied but they (republicans, confederates as I put it) did there best to get him impeached...ha,ha didn't happen. I'll continue to bash Bush and his administration and his supporters....worst president ever!!! Ever!!!

    The sadest part of all of this is a few people actually believe in this clown...I know they're not perfect but my God get a clue...and a life.

    I agree completly!!!
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