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  1. NRG
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    #381  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio

    OK, a conservative dem won, they are on the move now.
    Full head of steam!!!

    Nothing wrong with with being conservative or liberal, just so long as they don't wander to far to either side.
  2. #382  
    Quote Originally Posted by Advance The Man
    Cite that article regarding Rumsfield visiting Iraq. Appears he visited prior to the gassing, which once again would debunk your stories of lies.
    I've been quite busy, but a casual google makes me think that your Rumsfield chronology is probably correct -- he came to visit with Saddamm during the war, but likely before the gassing of the Kurds began.
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/10/2005 at 03:40 AM.
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  3. NRG
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    #383  
    Amazing! Let see where this goes. If I was a Bush fan I would be quite worried.

    Source: LA Times

    FBI Is Taking Another Look at Forged Prewar Intelligence
    By Peter Wallsten, Tom Hamburger and Josh Meyer, Times Staff Writers


    WASHINGTON The FBI has reopened an inquiry into one of the most intriguing aspects of the pre-Iraq war intelligence fiasco: how the Bush administration came to rely on forged documents linking Iraq to nuclear weapons materials as part of its justification for the invasion.

    The documents inspired intense U.S. interest in the buildup to the war and they led the CIA to send a former ambassador to the African nation of Niger to investigate whether Iraq had sought the materials there. The ambassador, Joseph C. Wilson IV, found little evidence to support such a claim, and the documents were later deemed to have been forged.

    -snip-

    The FBI's decision to reopen the investigation reverses the agency's announcement last month that it had finished a two-year inquiry and concluded that the forgeries were part of a moneymaking scheme and not an effort to manipulate U.S. foreign policy.

    Those findings concerned some members of the Senate Intelligence Committee after published reports that the FBI had not interviewed a former Italian spy named Rocco Martino, who was identified as the original source of the documents. The committee had requested the initial investigation.

    -snip-
  4. #384  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Amazing! Let see where this goes. If I was a Bush fan I would be quite worried.
    *yawn*

    Wake me when they find something.

    This desire thi left has to find wrongdoing where none exists is repugnant. It would be refreshing to see more concern for the national interest and less concern for hurting Bush.
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  5. NRG
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    #385  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    *yawn*

    Wake me when they find something.

    This desire thi left has to find wrongdoing where none exists is repugnant. It would be refreshing to see more concern for the national interest and less concern for hurting Bush.
    This is a national interest, why are we in this war, why are over 2000 of our troops dead, why did 90% of the justifications for this war turn out to be BS. We shall see where this goes.
  6. #386  
    Sorry. We're in the war right now. The national interest is in doing what we need to ensure victory. Bitng the president's ankles during the course of the war does more harm than good. There will be a time to account for how we got there. This is not it.

    Your post stating that Bush supporters should be worried about this news gives the lie to your assertion that you are concerned about the national interest. In this case you seem to be concerned only with the Democrat's interests.
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  7. #387  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Sorry. We're in the war right now. The national interest is in doing what we need to ensure victory. Bitng the president's ankles during the course of the war does more harm than good. There will be a time to account for how we got there. This is not it.

    Your post stating that Bush supporters should be worried about this news gives the lie to your assertion that you are concerned about the national interest. In this case you seem to be concerned only with the Democrat's interests.
    No, the national interest is not this thing you call "victory". That's a silly emotional plea which translates to once combat begins there is no criticism which is bollocks.
  8. NRG
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    #388  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Sorry. We're in the war right now. The national interest is in doing what we need to ensure victory. Bitng the president's ankles during the course of the war does more harm than good. There will be a time to account for how we got there. This is not it.

    Your post stating that Bush supporters should be worried about this news gives the lie to your assertion that you are concerned about the national interest. In this case you seem to be concerned only with the Democrat's interests.
    Trying to pave over accountability by saying we are at a war is wrong, In my view. National interest is the question of 'why'. Are all the attacks in Iraq, outside terrorists? And if not to what ratio are they outsiders? If it is Iraqis attacking other Iraqis or iraqis attacking our Troops, then are we not in fact, in the middle of a civil war? What is our business in the middle of a civil war? Sorry these are some of my thoughts since over the past 5 years I have learned to not trust a damn thing this admin says.

    1) "We are not in the business of nation building"- Bush '99 or '00

    2) "By the year 2042, the entire [social security] system would be exhausted and bankrupt." Bush

    In what the BBC calls "highly unusual," a State of the Union Speech was interrupted by a chorus of "No's," booing, and heckles from some of the members of Congress in attendance. This happened immediately after the above Bush lie. As Shields mentioned on the PBS wrap-up, and as Brooks concurred, if adjustments are not made, by 2042, as they have been made before, 3/4 of the funds promised would still be available. The entire system would neither be exhausted nor bankrupt. -- Politex, 02.03.05


    3) "[Castro] welcomes sex tourism," Bush told a room of law enforcement officials in Florida, according to the Los Angeles Times. "Here's how he bragged about the industry," Bush said. "This is his quote: 'Cuba has the cleanest and most educated prostitutes in the world.'"

    "As it turns out, Bush had lifted that quotation not from an actual Castro speech but rather from a 2001 essay written by then Dartmouth University undergraduate Charles Trumbull. In the essay, Trumbull did appear to quote a Castro speech about prostitution. Sadly, the student made the quotation up.

    "According to officials, the actual quotation from Castro's 1992 speech reads as follows: 'There are hookers, but prostitution is not allowed in our country. There are no women forced to sell themselves to a man, to a foreigner, to a tourist. Those who do so do it on their own, voluntarily". We can say that they are highly educated hookers and quite healthy, because we are the country with the lowest number of AIDS cases.'"

    "...And this isn't the first time the Internet has baffled Bush. Back in 2003, the President cited another student's thesis when making a case to go to war. The student's [plagiarized and "sexed up"] work ended up in a government document describing Iraq's weapons capability. Not exactly the kind of hard intelligence needed to justify an attack on another country." The Register, 07.28.04

    4) "I don't believe anyone that I know in the administration ever said that Iraq had nuclear weapons."
    Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, at a hearing of the Senate's appropriations subcommittee on defense, May 14, 2003

    "We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons."
    Vice President **** Cheney on NBC's Meet the Press, March 16, 2003

    5) "I think it ought to be one of our priorities to work with our European friends to convince them to put troops on the ground."
    Fact: "European forces already make up a large majority of the peacekeeping forces in Bosnia and Kosovo." Washington Post, 10/12/00

    6) Central to the Saddam - al Qaeda connection claim is the assertion that Czech authorities had evidence of a meeting between one of the September 11 hijackers, Mohammed Atta and an Iraqi agent in Prague in April 2001.

    Both Czech President Vaclav Havel and Czech intelligence refuted this report. To this day, members of the Administration cite the Prague report as evidence of an Iraq - al Qaeda connection.

    7) Bush, in his speech to the U.N. Security Council on Sept. 12, said Iraq had made "several attempts to buy-high-strength aluminum tubes used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons."

    In his State of the Union address on Jan. 28, Bush said Iraq had "attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production."

    By early January, the IAEA had reached a preliminary conclusion:

    "The 81mm tubes sought by Iraq were 'not directly suitable' for centrifuges, but appeared intended for use as conventional artillery rockets, as Iraq had claimed. The Bush administration, meanwhile, stuck to its original position while acknowledging disagreement among U.S. officials who had reviewed the evidence."

    Last month, Powell likewise dismissed the IAEA's conclusions, telling U.N. leaders that Iraq would not have ordered tubes at such high prices and with such exacting performance ratings if intended for use as ordinary rockets. Powell specifically noted that Iraq had sought tubes that had been "anodized," or coated with a thin outer film -- a procedure that Powell said was required if the tubes were to be used in centrifuges.

    "A number of independent experts on uranium enrichment have sided with IAEA's conclusion that the tubes were at best ill suited for centrifuges. Several have said that the "anodized" features mentioned by Powell are actually a strong argument for use in rockets, not centrifuges, contrary to the administration's statement."

    "[An IAEA] report yesterday all but ruled out the use of the tubes in a nuclear program. The IAEA chief said investigators had unearthed extensive records that backed up Iraq's explanation. The documents, which included blueprints, invoices and notes from meetings, detailed a 14-year struggle by Iraq to make 81mm conventional rockets that would perform well and resist corrosion. Successive failures led Iraqi officials to revise their standards and request increasingly higher and more expensive metals."

    8) 19) [Bush] has consistently lied about Iraq's nuclear capabilities as well as its missile-delivery capabilities...Bush tried to frighten Americans by claiming that Iraq possesses a fleet of unmanned aircraft that could be used 'for missions targeting the US'. "[This statement is] false"

    9) Bush warned the United Nations that Saddam could have nuclear weapons within a year of acquiring fissionable material. Cheney said:

    "On the nuclear question, many of us are convinced that Saddam will acquire such weapons fairly soon."

    The CIA's own forecasts do not support these assertions.

    10) "The International Atomic Energy Agency says that a report cited by Bush as evidence that Iraq in 1998 was 'six months away' from developing a nuclear weapon does not exist. 'There's never been a report like that issued from this agency,' said Mark Gwozdecky, the IAEA's chief spokesman."

    I mean would could go on and on.

    The simple fact that he and his administration constantly deceive, lie, and tell half truths I feel makes this all the more important to get to the bottom of why the hell we are even involved in this war. Once we get the truth of what we are dealing with, then and only then can we truly fix what is going wrong in Iraq. Taking the admins word on what is going on in Iraq is a very, very, very poor substitute for the truth.
  9. #389  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    No, the national interest is not this thing you call "victory". That's a silly emotional plea which translates to once combat begins there is no criticism which is bollocks.
    No. You can criticize all you want. Back in the real world, however, there are consequences to the purposeless ankle-biting. I'm through describing "victory" to you. You could do the searching to reread my posts if you were interested - which obviously you are not. If you don't think victory is in our national interest then there really can't be any further rational discussion of this topic with you.
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  10. #390  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    blah blah blah
    We get it. You don't like Bush.

    My point is that attacking the President over either trivial issues or things dreamed up in the fever swamps of the political opposition may seem like fun to you but it has consequences in the wider world. Those consequences are obviously harsher when we are at war. Weakening Clinton during a time when Al Qaeda was gathering strength and was beginning to strike at us had consequences. Weakening Bush while we're at war will likely have more harsh consequences.
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  11. #391  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    No. You can criticize all you want. Back in the real world, however, there are consequences to the purposeless ankle-biting. I'm through describing "victory" to you. You could do the searching to reread my posts if you were interested - which obviously you are not. If you don't think victory is in our national interest then there really can't be any further rational discussion of this topic with you.
    Stop saying "victory". It has no meaning.
  12. #392  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Stop saying "victory". It has no meaning.
    Of course it does. You just don't think it's possible. Thankfully like-minded politicians are not currently in a position to act upon that defeatist impulse.
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  13. #393  
    Are you saying that John Kerry, Bill Clinton and the other democrats who spoke of Saddam's weapons of mass destruction before the invasion were lying, too? Or did they simply just listen to Bush and then spinelessly vote to invade?

    By the way, is there any doubt that Saddam actually used chemical weapons on his own people? Or is that a lie, too?

    Finally, was it reasonable to think that someone who had used these weapons before and who wouldn't let inspectors freely into his country against all UN resolutions might be planning something again?
  14. #394  
    Quote Originally Posted by BugzLife
    i think it is a powerful clip but is it bush fault for receiving wrong information from the intelligence community?
    A nice compilation ....

    If W was interested in making SURE he was right... he (as a good manager) would be asking hard questions from the Itelligence folks...but why ask the questions when you dont want to know the TRUTH...because he knew the truth but the truth doesnt allow him to do want he wants to do....
  15. #395  
    A nice compilation ....

    If W was interested in making SURE he was right... he (as a good manager) would be asking hard questions from the Itelligence folks...but why ask the questions when you dont want to know the TRUTH...because he knew the truth but the truth doesnt allow him to do want he wants to do....
    There is always intel on both sides of an issue. Prior to the invasion, any reasonable person would have (and did) looked at the intel and Saddam's behavior and come to the conclusion that Iraq had WMD. This has been beaten to death. Those who choose to believe in conspiracy theories will not be reasoned out of them.
    Last edited by phurth; 12/03/2005 at 09:00 PM.
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  16. #396  
    Again, why didn't the democrats ask these "hard" questions? There are many democrats on the Intelligence Committee and they usually don't just go and do what George Bush says.

    I love how the democrats are re-writing history. Based on the available intelligence at the time, even people like Bill Clinton weren't disputing what was said about WMD...

    Here's what they should do: Offer up a plan to deal with the terrorists better and let the voters decide. Simple. If they can win an election with their ideas, God bless'em. I'll even support them. But to just sit back and critique everything the President does is not a very intellectual response to a real problem.
  17. NRG
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    #397  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Stop saying "victory". It has no meaning.
    da, hate to tell you but, Bush has already told us what Victory means.

    "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."
    -Governor George W Bush (R-TX)
  18. #398  
    Quote Originally Posted by Westie
    Here's what they should do: Offer up a plan to deal with the terrorists better and let the voters decide. Simple. If they can win an election with their ideas, God bless'em. I'll even support them. But to just sit back and critique everything the President does is not a very intellectual response to a real problem.
    You are right...it is a REAL problem and we shouldn't be told to sit back and not ask tough questions.

    I'd much rather critique a policy as we go along rather than close a blind eye and then at the end when it hasn't met our expectations say "I told you so." (<--that doesnt seem very 'intelligent'.) At least this way, Pres. Bush can hear the criticisms, determine if they have merit and make changes if it something that will work. If he chooses not to, that's fine to.
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  19. #399  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    You are right...it is a REAL problem and we shouldn't be told to sit back and not ask tough questions.

    I'd much rather critique a policy as we go along rather than close a blind eye and then at the end when it hasn't met our expectations say "I told you so." (<--that doesnt seem very 'intelligent'.) At least this way, Pres. Bush can hear the criticisms, determine if they have merit and make changes if it something that will work. If he chooses not to, that's fine to.
    I certainly agree with you insofar as the criticism is legitimate and constructive and not simply an effort to gain political advantage. All this "Bush lied" crap is clearly not that. All I have said is that these criticisms have consequences. Those making them must bear in mind that the enemy is listening and is making decisions based on what they hear.
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  20. #400  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    I certainly agree with you insofar as the criticism is legitimate and constructive and not simply an effort to gain political advantage.
    It appears that whether or not it is legitimate or constructive depends on if you voted for Pres. Bush or not. (I know what you mean though.)

    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    All this "Bush lied" crap is clearly not that.
    I personally believe there are some legitimate questions about what we have done and why we have done it. I don't like the Pres. "Bush Lied" approach because it assumes a certain level of intent that I don't think any facts conclusively show.

    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    All I have said is that these criticisms have consequences. Those making them must bear in mind that the enemy is listening and is making decisions based on what they hear.
    That may be true but we shouldn't give up the idea of having free speach or political discourse simply because someone else might be listening. I do think we can do a better job of voicing our opinions so that they are more constructive. If we allow the fact that other countries and organizations are listening to us limit our voicing of concerns, it leads us down the road to a 'police' state which I don't think a majority of us really want.
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