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  1. cardio's Avatar
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    #321  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Here is some more info to add to the collection.
    This report identifies sources that provided misinformation, the misinformation came from more than one source. This report states misinfromation was later identified or proven to be misinformation. A lot of people, intellignce agencies and countries all stated that Saddam had WMDs. Saddam agreed to allow UN inspectors complete freedom to verify he had destroyed WMDs after the first Gulf War, he failed to do that. The UN could not say that he did not have WMDs. There were verified AQ terrorist training sites in Iraq, especailly northern Iraq (some argue that those sites were out of Saddams control, but they were there).
  2. #322  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    ... There were verified AQ terrorist training sites in Iraq, especailly northern Iraq (some argue that those sites were out of Saddams control, but they were there).
    this is the lie that most infuriates me.

    Zarquawi (sworn enemy of Sadamm and all western oriented arab rulers) and his followers were in Northern Iraq -- within the Kurdish zone.

    The zarquawi gang was conducting raids, assassinations, and terrorism against the Kurds -- who pleaded for some modest american help in eliminating this minor pustule on their flank.

    junior in his genius preferred to have the phoney “iraq based Al Queda training camps” lie, than to authorize the destruction of Zarquawi when it would have been doable.


    Captives Deny Qaeda Worked With Baghdad
    By JAMES RISEN NY Times

    WASHINGTON, June 8, 2003 — Two of the highest-ranking leaders of Al Qaeda in American custody have told the C.I.A. in separate interrogations that the terrorist organization did not work jointly with the Iraqi government of Saddam Hussein, according to several intelligence officials.

    Abu Zubaydah, a Qaeda planner and recruiter until his capture in March 2002, told his questioners last year that the idea of working with Mr. Hussein's government had been discussed among Qaeda leaders, but that Osama bin Laden had rejected such proposals, according to an official who has read the Central Intelligence Agency's classified report on the interrogation.

    In his debriefing, Mr. Zubaydah said Mr. bin Laden had vetoed the idea because he did not want to be beholden to Mr. Hussein, the official said.

    Separately, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the Qaeda chief of operations until his capture on March 1 in Pakistan, has also told interrogators that the group did not work with Mr. Hussein, officials said.

    The Bush administration has not made these statements public, though it frequently highlighted intelligence reports that supported its assertions of links between Iraq and Al Qaeda as it made its case for war against Iraq...



    Instruction and Methods From Al Qaeda Took Root in North Iraq
    By C. J. CHIVERS NY Times

    DARGA SHARKHAN, Iraq, April 22, 2003 — The two-inch-thick manual on killing, discovered in an abandoned bomb laboratory here early this month, offers instruction in Al Qaeda's array of lethal demolition skills...

    Ansar established itself late in 2001, as the war in Afghanistan was winding down, uniting previously splintered Islamic parties. It occupied a border region in northeastern Iraq that has been out of Saddam Hussein's control since 1991.

    The group waged war against the zone's Kurdish government, destabilizing the region with assassination attempts, guerrilla attacks and suicide bombings. The United States has pointed to its activities as one justification for the war in Iraq.

    American and Kurdish officials say the group received support from Al Qaeda and coordinated activities through Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian identified by the United States as a lieutenant of Osama bin Laden. They also said the group ran a factory that made the poison ricin and a topical cyanide poison and maintained ties with Mr. Hussein.

    Evidence collected from the region is still being analyzed, and some American allegations remain publicly unsubstantiated. No clear evidence has emerged of operational links between Ansar and Mr. Hussein's government.


    Fabricated Links to Zarqawi
    A CIA report casts new doubt on links between Iraq and Al Qaeda.

    Michael Isikoff and Mark Hosenball
    Newsweek

    Oct. 26, 2005 - A secret draft CIA report raises new questions about a principal argument used by the Bush administration to justify the war in Iraq: the claim that Saddam Hussein was "harboring" notorious terror leader Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi prior to the American invasion.

    The allegation that Zarqawi had visited Baghdad in May 2002 with Saddam's sanction—purportedly for medical treatment—was once a centerpiece of the administration's arguments about Iraq...

    ...An intelligence official told NEWSWEEK that the current draft says that "most evidence suggests Saddam Hussein did not provide Zarqawi safe haven before the war...

    ...the agency was originally asked to conduct that review of Saddam's dealings with Zarqawi by Vice President **** Cheney.

    The new report is only the latest chink in the armor of the alleged Saddam-Al Qaeda connection. Last year, the September 11 Commission found there was no "collaborative" relationship between the Iraqi regime and Osama bin Laden; one high-level Al Qaeda commander—who had been cited by Powell as testifying to talks about chemical- and biological-warfare training—later recanted his claims.
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  3. cardio's Avatar
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    #323  
    Barye, are you saying that "Zarquawi (sworn enemy of Sadamm and all western oriented arab rulers) and his followers were in Northern Iraq -- within the Kurdish zone." was or was not in Iraq? If you are saying he was in Iraq are you saying he is not AQ?
  4. #324  
    No he didn't lie. Crazy liberals like to predict the past.

    liberalman, what happens if Republicans win in 2006 and 2008 Prez race? Will you still be whining and pointing fingers? Or will you actually have an idea? A plan?
  5. #325  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Barye, are you saying that "Zarquawi (sworn enemy of Sadamm and all western oriented arab rulers) and his followers were in Northern Iraq -- within the Kurdish zone." was or was not in Iraq? If you are saying he was in Iraq are you saying he is not AQ?

    The Northern Kurdistan zone was effectively a different nation state.

    With its own very effective army, and very robust economy (largely dependent on the oil being smuggled to Turkey, BTW)

    Saddamm was forbidden to enter into it --
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  6. #326  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    “iraq based Al Queda training camps” lie
    So what part of that is a lie???

    The camps existed.
    The camps were based in Iraq.
    The campers were affiliated with Al Qaeda.
    The camps were training camps.

    Or are you changing the definition of "lie" to suit your own agenda?

    I just want to understand the rules.
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    #327  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    The Northern Kurdistan zone was effectively a different nation state.

    With its own very effective army, and very robust economy (largely dependent on the oil being smuggled to Turkey, BTW)

    Saddamm was forbidden to enter into it --
    Forbidden due to the no-fly zone? If so that did not stop him, especially to the south. A known AQ terrorist had a camp set up in Iraq. Rationalizing it by saying it was effectively a different nation state does not make it so. Did he and Saddam sit down for tea, no, did he and Saddam correspond through e-mail, probably not. Did Saddam know his camp was there and use any of the means he used on others he disagreed with to remove him, NO.

    And, your statement goes against your argument about the elections in Iraq developing two different nation states out of Iraq. It is either one or the other, Iraq was a single nation state that the war is forcing into seperate nation states creating an unstable envoronment or Iraq was seperate nation states with no AQ in Iraq and AQ in non-Iraq Iraq.
  8. #328  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    So what part of that is a lie???

    The camps existed.
    The camps were based in Iraq.
    The campers were affiliated with Al Qaeda.
    The camps were training camps.

    Or are you changing the definition of "lie" to suit your own agenda?

    I just want to understand the rules.

    when someone tells half truths in an effort to deflect questions about an embarrassing dalliance -- that's a democrat's lie

    when someone uses half truths, plays with phoney evidence, cherry picks supportive allegations, in order to manipulate people's fears so as to bring a nation into a catastrophic war -- that's a republican's lie.
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  9. #329  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    when someone tells half truths in an effort to deflect questions about an embarrassing dalliance -- that's a democrat's lie

    when someone uses half truths, plays with phoney evidence, cherry picks supportive allegations, in order to manipulate people's fears so as to bring a nation into a catastrophic war -- that's a republican's lie.
    OK. So you are changing the definition. Thanks!
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  10. #330  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Forbidden due to the no-fly zone? If so that did not stop him, especially to the south. A known AQ terrorist had a camp set up in Iraq. Rationalizing it by saying it was effectively a different nation state does not make it so. Did he and Saddam sit down for tea, no, did he and Saddam correspond through e-mail, probably not. Did Saddam know his camp was there and use any of the means he used on others he disagreed with to remove him, NO..

    the moment Saddamm crossed into Kurdistan, a war would have begun -- probably UN sanctioned.

    And, your statement goes against your argument about the elections in Iraq developing two different nation states out of Iraq. It is either one or the other, Iraq was a single nation state that the war is forcing into seperate nation states creating an unstable envoronment or Iraq was seperate nation states with no AQ in Iraq and AQ in non-Iraq Iraq.
    I don't recall ever making that statement here.

    The reality of post war iraq is that it is effectively 3 nations -- an unbelievably unstable undefined amorphous configuration of borders and populations and identities.

    Before the war there was effectively 2 -- with easily definable borders (and very unhappy neighbors)
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  11. #331  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    the moment Saddamm crossed into Kurdistan, a war would have begun -- probably UN sanctioned.
    Not likely. The no-fly-zones were just that, no-fly-zones. There were no restrictions (that I'm aware of) on ground troop movements within Iraq (recall the slaughter of Kurds and Shia after the 1991 Gulf War).
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    #332  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    the moment Saddamm crossed into Kurdistan, a war would have begun -- probably UN sanctioned.



    I don't recall ever making that statement here.

    The reality of post war iraq is that it is effectively 3 nations -- an unbelievably unstable undefined amorphous configuration of borders and populations and identities.

    Before the war there was effectively 2 -- with easily definable borders (and very unhappy neighbors)
    Is Kurdistan recognized by the UN as an independant gov't? No.

    Iraq had a training camp used by known AQ. Saddam did not have any issues with gassing the Kurds, but did there is no evidence he tried to hinder the AQ camp at all.
  13. #333  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Is Kurdistan recognized by the UN as an independant gov't? No.

    Iraq had a training camp used by known AQ. Saddam did not have any issues with gassing the Kurds, but did there is no evidence he tried to hinder the AQ camp at all.

    both you guys should just look deep into your souls and confront the fact that this is plain and simply -- a LIE !!

    and please lay off the gasing of the Kurds -- Rumsfeld personally went to talk with Saddamm after that happened to reassure him of our continued support (and to tell him to ignore the proforma criticism spoken at the time from Washington.)
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  14. #334  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    both you guys should just look deep into your souls and confront the fact that this is plain and simply -- a LIE !!

    and please lay off the gasing of the Kurds -- Rumsfeld personally went to talk with Saddamm after that happened to reassure him of our continued support (and to tell him to ignore the proforma criticism spoken at the time from Washington.)
    Ditto!
  15. #335  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    both you guys should just look deep into your souls and confront the fact that this is plain and simply -- a LIE !!
    You know, you're right. I'll forget everything I've found through balanced research of the issue. I'll accept your talking points and move forward in ignorant, blind bliss!

    Thank you for freeing me from the truth!
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    #336  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    both you guys should just look deep into your souls and confront the fact that this is plain and simply -- a LIE !!

    and please lay off the gasing of the Kurds -- Rumsfeld personally went to talk with Saddamm after that happened to reassure him of our continued support (and to tell him to ignore the proforma criticism spoken at the time from Washington.)
    Hate it when the facts go against your statements don't ya.
  17. #337  
    Cite that article regarding Rumsfield visiting Iraq. Appears he visited prior to the gassing, which once again would debunk your stories of lies.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    both you guys should just look deep into your souls and confront the fact that this is plain and simply -- a LIE !!

    and please lay off the gasing of the Kurds -- Rumsfeld personally went to talk with Saddamm after that happened to reassure him of our continued support (and to tell him to ignore the proforma criticism spoken at the time from Washington.)
  18. #338  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Hate it when the facts go against your statements don't ya.
    WASHINGTON, (AFP) - US military intelligence warned the Bush administration as early as February 2002 that its key source on Al-Qaeda's relationship with Iraq had provided "intentionally misleading" data, according to a declassified report.

    Nevertheless, eight months later, President George W. Bush went public with charges that the Iraqi government of Saddam Hussein had trained members of Osama bin Laden's terror network in manufacturing deadly poisons and gases.



    These same accusations had found their way into then-secretary of state Colin Powell's February 2003 speech before the UN Security Council, in which he outlined the US rationale for military action against Iraq.

    "This newly declassified information provides additional, dramatic evidence that the administrations pre-war statements were deceptive," said Democrat Carl Levin, the ranking member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, who pushed for partial declassification of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) document.

    The report provides a critical analysis of information provided by Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, an Islamic radical and bin Laden associate, who served as senior military trainer at a key Al-Qaeda camp in Afghanistan before it was destroyed by US forces in late 2001.

    In captivity, al-Libi initially told his DIA debriefers that Al-Qaeda operatives had received training from Iraq in manufacturing poisons and deadly chemical agents.

    But the DIA, according to its assessment, did not find the information credible.

    US military intelligence officers concluded that al-Libi lacked "specific details on the Iraqis involved, the... materials associated with the assistance and the location where training occurred," the report said.

    "It is possible," the document went on to say, "he does not know any further details; it is more likely this individual is intentionally misleading the debriefers."

    The DIA suggested al-Libi, who had been under interrogation for several weeks, "may be describing scenarios to the debriefers that he knows will retain their interest."

    Just the same, president Bush insisted during an October 2002 trip to Cincinnati, Ohio, that his administration had learned that "Iraq has trained Al-Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases."

    He repeated the same charge in February 2003.

    The administration's drumbeat over alleged Iraq-Qaeda ties reached a crescendo that same month when Powell went before the United Nations to accuse Iraq of hiding tons of chemical and biological weapons and nurturing nuclear ambitions.

    His speech, according to congressional officials, even contained a direct reference to al-Libi's testimony, albeit not his name.

    "I can trace the story of a senior terrorist operative telling how Iraq provided training in these weapons to Al-Qaeda," insisted the secretary of state, who now says he regrets voicing many of the charges contained in that speech.

    The unveiling of the documents came as Senate Democrats are stepping up pressure on their Republican colleagues, trying to force them to complete a second report on pre-war intelligence that would focus on whether members of the Bush administration had misused or intentionally misinterpreted intelligence findings.

    The first report on the role of US intelligence agencies in the run-up to the war was released in June 2004.

    Jay Rockefeller, the top Democrat of the Senate intelligence committee, said the case of al-Libi illustrates the need to look into how pre-war intelligence was used.

    "He's an entirely unreliable individual upon whom the White House was placing substantial intelligence trust," the senator said of al-Libi Sunday. "And that is a classic example of a lack of accountability to the American people."

    Al-Libi formally recanted last year, according to congressional officials.
  19. #339  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    "He's an entirely unreliable individual upon whom the White House was placing substantial intelligence trust," the senator said of al-Libi Sunday. "And that is a classic example of a lack of accountability to the American people."

    Al-Libi formally recanted last year, according to congressional officials.
    ...and that's his real name??? alibi?
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  20. cardio's Avatar
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    #340  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    WASHINGTON, (AFP) - US military intelligence warned the Bush administration as early as February 2002 that its key source on Al-Qaeda's relationship with Iraq had provided "intentionally misleading" data, according to a declassified report.

    Nevertheless, eight months later, President George W. Bush went public with charges that the Iraqi government of Saddam Hussein had trained members of Osama bin Laden's terror network in manufacturing deadly poisons and gases.



    These same accusations had found their way into then-secretary of state Colin Powell's February 2003 speech before the UN Security Council, in which he outlined the US rationale for military action against Iraq.

    "This newly declassified information provides additional, dramatic evidence that the administrations pre-war statements were deceptive," said Democrat Carl Levin, the ranking member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, who pushed for partial declassification of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) document.

    The report provides a critical analysis of information provided by Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, an Islamic radical and bin Laden associate, who served as senior military trainer at a key Al-Qaeda camp in Afghanistan before it was destroyed by US forces in late 2001.

    In captivity, al-Libi initially told his DIA debriefers that Al-Qaeda operatives had received training from Iraq in manufacturing poisons and deadly chemical agents.

    But the DIA, according to its assessment, did not find the information credible.

    US military intelligence officers concluded that al-Libi lacked "specific details on the Iraqis involved, the... materials associated with the assistance and the location where training occurred," the report said.

    "It is possible," the document went on to say, "he does not know any further details; it is more likely this individual is intentionally misleading the debriefers."

    The DIA suggested al-Libi, who had been under interrogation for several weeks, "may be describing scenarios to the debriefers that he knows will retain their interest."

    Just the same, president Bush insisted during an October 2002 trip to Cincinnati, Ohio, that his administration had learned that "Iraq has trained Al-Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases."

    He repeated the same charge in February 2003.

    The administration's drumbeat over alleged Iraq-Qaeda ties reached a crescendo that same month when Powell went before the United Nations to accuse Iraq of hiding tons of chemical and biological weapons and nurturing nuclear ambitions.

    His speech, according to congressional officials, even contained a direct reference to al-Libi's testimony, albeit not his name.

    "I can trace the story of a senior terrorist operative telling how Iraq provided training in these weapons to Al-Qaeda," insisted the secretary of state, who now says he regrets voicing many of the charges contained in that speech.

    The unveiling of the documents came as Senate Democrats are stepping up pressure on their Republican colleagues, trying to force them to complete a second report on pre-war intelligence that would focus on whether members of the Bush administration had misused or intentionally misinterpreted intelligence findings.

    The first report on the role of US intelligence agencies in the run-up to the war was released in June 2004.

    Jay Rockefeller, the top Democrat of the Senate intelligence committee, said the case of al-Libi illustrates the need to look into how pre-war intelligence was used.

    "He's an entirely unreliable individual upon whom the White House was placing substantial intelligence trust," the senator said of al-Libi Sunday. "And that is a classic example of a lack of accountability to the American people."

    Al-Libi formally recanted last year, according to congressional officials.
    Thanks for sharing the same story again, even though it has nothing to do with the quote you tied it to.

    FACT: There were AG terrorist training camps in Iraq before the US invasion. Paint it with rose colored glasses if you like, say well it was in Northern Iraq in the no-fly zone (which we know Saddam adhered to ), tell yourself that the terrorist really did not like Saddam, what ever you want to make your self feel better, but it does not change the fact.

    The vast majority of the world looked at the intel provided at the time, from various sources, not just MR Alibi, and made statements such as undeniable evidence, grave danger to the US, clearly he is hiding something. Yes even people like John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Sen Reid, et al.

    I know you would like to have given economic and political santions another 10 or 15 years after all look how much was accomplished in the first 10 years of sanctions.

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