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  1. #241  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    ...Let's see what was really going on under the hood, by this I mean see how our intel and other assumptions came to fruition. Or I guess you aren't concerned that your president may have lied to you.
    Sure, lets. Lets find out how the Oil for Food program was used to bribe French and German officials to undermine the sanctions. Lets look "under the hood" of the mass graves of the tens of thousands of innocent civilians Saddam murdered, many of them with WMDs, let's look at how many UN resolutions Saddam wiped his.. nose ... with, let's look at how many times he took potshots at American pilots enforcing the UN mandated no-fly zones, let's look at the intelligence from the Europeans, the UN, the Russians that all pointed to Saddam having WMDs.

    Lets.
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  2. #242  
    Saddam never violated the sanctions, there weren't any UN resolutions about any violations. That was all a big lie cooked up by Karl Rove and the UN Security Council.

    Nor did Saddam ever violate the no-fly zones, or fire at our planes. That was a lie perpetrated by Saddam himself. These things never happened ZBoater, and you know it!!
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  3. #243  
    a policy I liked? how about the tax cut. Reduction/elimination of marriage penalty, estate tax lower taxes over all are great imo.

    that enough to get you going?
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  4. NRG
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    #244  
    Quote Originally Posted by ZBoater
    Sure, lets. Lets find out how the Oil for Food program was used to bribe French and German officials to undermine the sanctions. Lets look "under the hood" of the mass graves of the tens of thousands of innocent civilians Saddam murdered, many of them with WMDs, let's look at how many UN resolutions Saddam wiped his.. nose ... with, let's look at how many times he took potshots at American pilots enforcing the UN mandated no-fly zones, let's look at the intelligence from the Europeans, the UN, the Russians that all pointed to Saddam having WMDs.

    Lets.
    So I take this to mean you don't care if your president lied to you?
  5. #245  
    Sure Saddam was an a--ole, but forged yellow cake document and bioterror winnebago cartoon notwithstanding, the argument that he was a real threat to the US was and is weak, the rest of the world knows it too.
  6. NRG
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    #246  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    a policy I liked? how about the tax cut.
    Sure the tax cut would be great if we could work it into our budget, but, we can't so therefore I say reduce it or rework it some so we can pay for the wars, fund SS, medicare, and other such things. A tax cut of this magnitude during wartime is just asinine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Reduction/elimination of marriage penalty
    I am not married yet (but will be in 2 weeks) so maybe I will see. But see above for my thoughts on tax cuts during a time of war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    estate tax lower taxes over all are great imo.

    that enough to get you going?
    I really think we should wait till the war is over before we start cutting off the revenue stream to goverment. It would be nice to have a balanced budget. You know something that is fiscally responsible.
  7. #247  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    So I take this to mean you don't care if your president lied to you?
    I care. I just don't believe he lied.
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  8. #248  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Sure the tax cut would be great if we could work it into our budget, but, we can't so therefore I say reduce it or rework it some so we can pay for the wars, fund SS, medicare, and other such things. A tax cut of this magnitude during wartime is just asinine.
    We can work it into our budget, if we SPEND less...

    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I really think we should wait till the war is over before we start cutting off the revenue stream to goverment. It would be nice to have a balanced budget. You know something that is fiscally responsible.
    Funny. Just this past Wednesday the IRS hit a financial milestone - it took in more money in one day - $61 billion - than in any other day. EVER. And that is WITH the tax cuts....

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8248222/
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  9. #249  
    Actually I heard on the radio news this week, usa today or ccn, cant remember which station I was listening to, something on XM, anyway the report said the defecit was actually down some several hundred million and govt income revenue was up.

    Don't ask me for a source. I just remember hearing it at the top of the huor news.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
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  10. #250  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Actually I heard on the radio news this week, usa today or ccn, cant remember which station I was listening to, something on XM, anyway the report said the defecit was actually down some several hundred million and govt income revenue was up.

    Don't ask me for a source. I just remember hearing it at the top of the huor news.
    Doesn't matter, unless you tax those rich bastards, it doesn't count. In fact I think the IRS is lying too...in cohoots with the Bush Administration. They're in on the oil contracts too, I'm sure.
    Last edited by Insertion; 06/17/2005 at 09:45 PM. Reason: my speel chek iz broekun
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  11. #251  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Doesn't matter, unless you tax those rich bastards, it doesn't count. In fact I think the IRS is lying too...in cohoots with the Bush Administration. There in on the oil contracts too, I'm sure.
    Geez louise, so the rich bastards dont get taxed? 20% of the taxpayers pay over 80% of the taxes in this country.

    This thread is degenerating quickly. Did Bush lie? Is he in cohoots with the oil people to give them contracts and cut their taxes while he piles it on the little people????????????

    <shakes head> Pleaazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzze make it stop!!!
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  12. #252  
    Quote Originally Posted by ZBoater
    Geez louise, so the rich bastards dont get taxed? 20% of the taxpayers pay over 80% of the taxes in this country.

    This thread is degenerating quickly. Did Bush lie? Is he in cohoots with the oil people to give them contracts and cut their taxes while he piles it on the little people????????????

    <shakes head> Pleaazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzze make it stop!!!

    Z, Insertion was being himself. Heavy on the sarcasm.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  13. #253  
    Sorry to aid in the degeneration, but these threads have become predictable anymore.

    I find no use in . No ones opinions change. You can pick your topic, and I'll write the script to it. I can almost guarantee it will be the same as the actual thread. That's why other than some irrelevant light hearted posts, I have for the most part stopped contributing.
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  14. #254  
    A miracle!!!! We agree!!!!
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  15. #255  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    So why don't we hold a hearing and get Bush under oath so the American people can be assured that Bush is being held accountable. If he did nothing wrong then he has nothing to fear. We make the scope of the hearing very narrow and focus on Iraq and pre-war intel. Sound fair?
    All depends on what Is is.

    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    As far as President Bush being re-elected...most moderates would say something like 'He was the lesser of two evils". Thats really not a ringing endorsement
    Just like Clinton being re-elected with only getting 4 votes out of every ten. It's the way the system works. At least they thought Bush was the better of the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    So I take this to mean you don't care if your president lied to you?
    I think what he was saying....or at least what I was saying earlier, was YES, we should all care if ANY president lies. Whether it is for personal gain by committing perjury by lying under oath as Clinton did....or if these claims against Bush from these docs are true. BUT, and this is a big BUT, we have to take everything into account....all the intel worldwide supporting the claims, the bribes that Saddam has personally testified he paid to help his cause for WMDs, and the Oil for Food bribes to stop countries from voting for going to war. Take it all into the investigation and not just one single doc. then I want to know what happened.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 06/17/2005 at 11:47 PM.
  16. #256  
    Just as a point of reference here is how Blair and Bush responded to a Q about this doc during a joint press conference:

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0050607-2.html

    PRESIDENT BUSH: Steve.

    Q Thank you, sir. On Iraq, the so-called Downing Street memo from July 2002 says intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy of removing Saddam through military action. Is this an accurate reflection of what happened? Could both of you respond?

    PRIME MINISTER BLAIR: Well, I can respond to that very easily. No, the facts were not being fixed in any shape or form at all. And let me remind you that that memorandum was written before we then went to the United Nations. Now, no one knows more intimately the discussions that we were conducting as two countries at the time than me. And the fact is we decided to go to the United Nations and went through that process, which resulted in the November 2002 United Nations resolution, to give a final chance to Saddam Hussein to comply with international law. He didn't do so. And that was the reason why we had to take military action.

    But all the way through that period of time, we were trying to look for a way of managing to resolve this without conflict. As it happened, we weren't able to do that because -- as I think was very clear -- there was no way that Saddam Hussein was ever going to change the way that he worked, or the way that he acted.

    PRESIDENT BUSH: Well, I -- you know, I read kind of the characterizations of the memo, particularly when they dropped it out in the middle of his race. I'm not sure who "they dropped it out" is, but -- I'm not suggesting that you all dropped it out there. (Laughter.) And somebody said, well, you know, we had made up our mind to go to use military force to deal with Saddam. There's nothing farther from the truth.

    My conversation with the Prime Minister was, how could we do this peacefully, what could we do. And this meeting, evidently, that took place in London happened before we even went to the United Nations -- or I went to the United Nations. And so it's -- look, both us of didn't want to use our military. Nobody wants to commit military into combat. It's the last option. The consequences of committing the military are -- are very difficult. The hardest things I do as the President is to try to comfort families who've lost a loved one in combat. It's the last option that the President must have -- and it's the last option I know my friend had, as well.

    And so we worked hard to see if we could figure out how to do this peacefully, take a -- put a united front up to Saddam Hussein, and say, the world speaks, and he ignored the world. Remember, 1441 passed the Security Council unanimously. He made the decision. And the world is better off without Saddam Hussein in power.
  17. #257  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    So all the other nations in the world had some lucrative financial association with Iraq (the The Oil for Food scandal)............except England and the US. Thats why only the US and England together pushed for war. Yes that's very believable.

    The leaders and foreign policy ministers and the defense department and the intelligence departments of France and Germany acted in a coordinated manner to protect their little oil corruption scam - yes of course, please pass that kool-aid over here, it seems like a pretty good batch to me.
    No Koolaid for you!

    France to probe official in oil-for-food scandal
    Crude obtained by allegedly pro-Iraqi former envoy went to Nfld. refinery


    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...ational/Africa

    Here is an edited version with the highlights:

    SOURCE : UN, ISG, SENATE SUB-COMMITTEE COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS

    A Paris court official has confirmed that Mr. Boidevaix's name is on a list of 11 French political, diplomatic and other personalities whom Judge Philippe Courroye intends to investigate for suspicion of profiting from the sale of Iraqi oil under the United-Nations-sponsored oil-for-food program.

    According to a report prepared by the brigade de répression de la délinquance économique, a French police unit that investigates corruption and other economic crimes, "infractions of active and passive corruption and influence peddling appear to have taken place and continued until May of 2002."

    The report, obtained by the newspaper Le Monde, says that "Most of the individuals who received [oil] allocations were expected to spread a positive image of the Iraqi regime by taking a pro-Iraqi position," and specifically names Mr. Boidevaix and Gilles Munier, secretary-general of the Franco-Iraqi Friendship Society.

    Mr. Boidevaix is a former president of Franco-Iraqi Economic Co-operation Association and frequently denounced UN sanctions against the Hussein regime before the U.S.-led invasion in 2003.

    Among the others on the judge's list are Charles Pasqua, a former French interior minister and political ally of President Jacques Chirac, and Jean-Bernard Mérimée, a former French ambassador to the UN.

    Judge Courroye began investigating the role of French oil firm Total SA in Iraqi oil trading in 2002, and has recently sought authority to expand that inquiry in the wake of disclosures by U.S. investigators of how Iraq handed out valuable oil-trading rights to prominent people from France, Russia and other countries to promote its effort to end the sanctions against it.

    An investigation by The Globe and Mail has unearthed the extent to which Mr. Boidevaix and Vitol were anxious to please Mr. Hussein: A fake French subsidiary of Vitol was created, apparently to make it appear that Mr. Boidevaix represented a company from France, whose backing Mr. Hussein was anxious to court at the UN Security Council.

    Those crude imports were so massive that Iraq easily topped every other country, including the United States, as Newfoundland's top source of imports for several years.

    Mr. Boidevaix, a 76-year-old former French ambassador to Germany and onetime top civil servant in the French Foreign Ministry, travelled frequently to Baghdad while Mr. Hussein was in power. There are photographs of him being greeted warmly by former vice-premier Tariq Aziz, and he was known in France as an outspoken critic of the UN sanctions imposed against Baghdad after its invasion of Kuwait.

    For the Iraqis, who wanted to influence the policies of UN Security Council heavyweights such as France and Russia, Mr. Boidevaix's link with a company from Switzerland would have been problematic. So a fictitious subsidiary, Vitol France, was created and Mr. Boidevaix became its self-appointed president.

    He explained that the Iraqis were anxious to curry favour with influential members of the UN Security Council, so they lavished oil allocations on politicians and companies from those countries.

    "They had quotas -- so many Russians, so many French and so many Chinese," the investigator said. "Switzerland wasn't on the list. . . . The overall strategy was to win friends and influence people."

    his privileged position with the Iraqis is evident from a letter written by Iraqi oil minister Amir Muhammad Rashid to vice-president Taha Yasin Ramadan in November of 1998, outlining oil allocations for the next two months. The document was disclosed at a Senate committee meeting in May.

    In the letter, the oil minister proposed that 80 million barrels of crude be distributed to "friendly nations, companies and political establishments . . . for the superpowers as shown below: Russia, 40 per cent; France, 15 per cent; and China, 11 per cent."

    Illegal cross border trade: $11 billion (U.S.)

    Oil surcharges: $228 million

    Kickbacks from vendors of program goods and services: $1.5 billion. They typically accounted for 10 per cent of contract value.

    Unsanctioned oil sales: $1.2 billion These went to private companies outside the official oil for food voucher sanctions.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 06/29/2005 at 03:50 PM.
  18. #258  
    I'm convinced. Can I be a liberal now?
  19. #259  

    If you are convinced about the Oil For Food scandal....then Nope!

    If you are convinced already that Bush lied...then you already are one!
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 06/29/2005 at 03:51 PM.
  20. #260  
    Oil for Fraud is a fact...Bush lying isnt
    Well behaved women rarely make history

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