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  1.    #1  
    No inflamatory rhetoric here......

    Amnesty International Secretary General Irene Kahn says "Guantanamo has become the gulag of our times."

    Gulag: http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/gula.html

    THE GULAG

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Soviet system of forced labor camps was first established in 1919 under the Cheka, but it was not until the early 1930s that the camp population reached significant numbers. By 1934 the Gulag, or Main Directorate for Corrective Labor Camps, then under the Cheka's successor organization the NKVD, had several million inmates. Prisoners included murderers, thieves, and other common criminals--along with political and religious dissenters. The Gulag, whose camps were located mainly in remote regions of Siberia and the Far North, made significant contributions to the Soviet economy in the period of Joseph Stalin. Gulag prisoners constructed the White Sea-Baltic Canal, the Moscow-Volga Canal, the Baikal-Amur main railroad line, numerous hydroelectric stations, and strategic roads and industrial enterprises in remote regions. GULAG manpower was also used for much of the country's lumbering and for the mining of coal, copper, and gold.

    Stalin constantly increased the number of projects assigned to the NKVD, which led to an increasing reliance on its labor. The Gulag also served as a source of workers for economic projects independent of the NKVD, which contracted its prisoners out to various economic enterprises.

    Conditions in the camps were extremely harsh. Prisoners received inadequate food rations and insufficient clothing, which made it difficult to endure the severe weather and the long working hours; sometimes the inmates were physically abused by camp guards. As a result, the death rate from exhaustion and disease in the camps was high. After Stalin died in 1953, the Gulag population was reduced significantly, and conditions for inmates somewhat improved. Forced labor camps continued to exist, although on a small scale, into the Gorbachev period, and the government even opened some camps to scrutiny by journalists and human rights activists. With the advance of democratization, political prisoners and prisoners of conscience all but disappeared from the camps.


    How can anyone in their right mind draw a reasonable parallel here?
    Last edited by treo2die4; 05/26/2005 at 02:36 PM.
  2. #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    How can anyone in their right mind draw a reasonable parallel here?
    I agree with you that Guantanamo does not have the forced labor part of the gulags nor the physical hardships.

    But I think it parallels a gulag in that both are used as places to creatively extract information from politicial prisoners without having to worry about trials, the Geneva convention or other human rights.

    Also, how about including the arguments made by this other person or at least a news article which describes it? here I will do it:

    http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nat...orld-headlines

    http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGPOL100052005
  3. #3  
    Sorry but I think you have to register for the baltimore sun article.

    One other tidbit on this. I think the amnesty international secretary general ripped off the catchy gulag analogy from another author who wrote a book last year about a related subject, the abuse in US immigration prisons, called "American Gulag". This is an interesting read.

    http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10041.html
  4.    #4  
    Though I respect your opinion, your response is exactly what I'm talking about. To parallel what is happening at Gitmo to a Gulag is obsurd.

    To my knowledge, none of the hallmarks of a gulag are taking place:

    forced labor camp
    Conditions in the camps were extremely harsh.
    Prisoners received inadequate food rations and insufficient clothing, which made it difficult to endure the severe weather and the long working hours;
    sometimes the inmates were physically abused by camp guards.
    As a result, the death rate from exhaustion and disease in the camps was high

    IMO, this type of parallel serves no purpose other than further polarization. To me, it is akin to any comparison to Hitler - the comparison must be in total, not a few tid bits for the sake of spin.
  5. #5  
    I think they could use a little suffering...I have no sympathy for them whatsoever...
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    IMO, this type of parallel serves no purpose other than further polarization. To me, it is akin to any comparison to Hitler - the comparison must be in total, not a few tid bits for the sake of spin.
    I think the main difference between you and me is the idea that you think that maltreatment, abuse and probably torture applied to people who are rounded up on broad sweeps without a trial and held indefinitely amounts to a few tid bits.

    The real way to stop terrorism is not to indiscriminantly flog arabs first and find out if they are guilty later, if they ever get a trial. This just facilitates hatred of the US and increases the transition of moderate arabs to the radical camp. This is a back-asswards approach and makes us look like hypocrites when we criticize other countries about their abuses.
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    The real way to stop terrorism is not to indiscriminantly flog arabs first and find out if they are guilty later, if they ever get a trial. This just facilitates hatred of the US and increases the transition of moderate arabs to the radical camp. This is a back-asswards approach and makes us look like hypocrites when we criticize other countries about their abuses.
    I saw the start of this paragraph and thought I'd would here the "real way to stop terrorism". Of course there is no solution offered here, only what not to do. How about providing a real solution to stop terrorism. Or shall I assume you mean we should coddle spoil pamper baby payoff all arabs so they think we are swell and no longer want to kill us? Maybe we could offer to pay all the printing costs for the "sacred book".

    Now I am NOT saying mistreating prisoners is the answer, but when are some people going to realize that certain folks (ie radical muslims)are going to hate us just because, even without any rational explanation. Being nice wont make them not hate us. They will just think we are weak. But then maybe you'd rather be weak and possibly liked than disliked or even hated for being strong. Me, Ill take the latter.
  8. #8  
    Gulag, eh? Paging Nathan Sharnansky, paging Mr. Nathan Sharansky...please pick up the white courtesy phone and explain to these twits what a "gulag" is.

    Maybe we should send them a copy of "A day in the life of Ivan Denisovitch", or "Inside the Gulag Archipeligo"?

    The Jihadis are playing our media like a fiddle. (Of course, you can't rape the willing.)
  9.    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    The Jihadis are playing our media like a fiddle. (Of course, you can't rape the willing.)
    You hit the nail in the head.
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    I Maybe we could offer to pay all the printing costs for the "sacred book".
    Interesting read on this issue:

    "While Islamist fanatics and ignorant Westerners sow panic over the alleged desecration of a Koran at Guantanamo Bay, no one mentions a startling fact: When it comes to destruction of the Koran, there's no question who the world champion is--the government of Saudi Arabia.

    The Saudi state religion is the primitive and austere Wahhabi version of Islam, which defines many traditional Islamic practices as idolatrous. Notably, the state bans the importation of Korans published elsewhere. When foreign pilgrims arrive at the Saudi border by the millions for the annual journey to Mecca, what happens to the non-Saudi Korans they are carrying? The border guards confiscate them, to be shredded, pulped, or burned. Beautiful bindings and fine paper are viewed as a particular provocation--all are destroyed. (This on top of the spiritual vandalism the Saudis perpetrate, by inserting anti-Jewish and anti-Christian squibs into the Korans they publish in foreign languages, as Stephen Schwartz documented in our issue of September 27, 2004.)

    This behavior isn't a recent innovation, by the way. Here's an account of how the Saudis carried on when they seized the city of Taif in 1802. It's taken from an unimpeachable Islamic source, the compilation Advice for the Muslim, edited by the Turkish scholar Hilmi Isik and published by Hakikat Kitabevi in Istanbul:


    The Wahhabis tore up the copies of the Koran . . . and other Islamic books they took from libraries, mosques and houses, and threw them down on the ground. They made sandals from the gold-gilded leather covers

    of the Koran and other books and wore them on their filthy feet. There were verses of the Koran and other sacred writings on those leather covers. The pages of those valuable books thrown around were so numerous that there was no space to step in the streets of Taif. . . . The Wahhabi bandits, who were gathered from the deserts for looting and who did not know the Koran, tore up all the copies they found and stamped on them. Only three copies of the Koran were saved from the plunder of a major town, Taif.

    No wonder anti-Wahhabi Muslims say "the Saudis print the Koran to destroy it." They print it and they destroy it in a daily desecration that makes Newsweek's retracted Guantanamo allegation look trivial by comparison."
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  11. #11  
    so the liberal media in collusion with the terrorists is to blame for this rash of bad news about prisoner abuse? That's a good one, its always easier to blame someone else for problems caused by your own policies. What would I do to "help the situation instead of complain"? To start with, I would treat the people we pick up either as criminals or as prisoners of war, and try to respect some international guidelines.

    As far as what more to do to stop terrorism? Sure there are lots of things that we can obviously do which are not currently being done like improve the CIA immensely, which has known to be flawed since 911 and WMD, for years.

    But how can we fix something if you do not even know the cause of it. What is the cause of terrorism? What arguments do the terrorists use to recruit more moderates to their radical cause? What can they whip up hate against the US on? Its not freedom, like our prez wants us to believe. The terrorists hate the fact that we support Israel, that we do not respect their culture, and that we invaded an Arab country in large part to keep our fingers on their oil. It is hard to do anything about Israel, they need our support and we need to give it to them. But there is a whole lot we can do to show the arab people that we respect their culture and religion and that we respect their sovereign use of their own natural resources. this starts at home first by not gleefully explaining why it is not a problem why the Koran should be flushed down the toilet. That is the kind of stuff that the Jihadists use to whip people up with. That kind of attitude. We need to stop blaming the liberal press and start looking critically at what we can do to win the hearts and minds of the moderate arab majority here away from the terrorist recruiters. That is the winning strategy. We cannot just kill every terrorist we see like a bunch of cockroaches. More are going to come. We have to think ahead.
  12. #12  
    Political unrest has pretty much been a constant in the middle east area since the beginning of recorded history. I applaud all who try to establish peace there. Not trying to be cliche here, but just because we'll probably fail, doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

    As for Gitmo, we are 'at war' and will continue to see reports like this, even several years after (if) we pull out of Iraq.
  13. #13  
    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Guantanamo detainee who told an FBI agent in 2002 that U.S. personnel there had flushed a Koran in a toilet retracted his allegation when questioned this month by military investigators, the Pentagon said on Thursday.

    “We’ve gone back to the detainee who allegedly made the allegation and he has said it didn’t happen. So the underlying allegation, the detainee himself, within the last two weeks, said that didn’t happen,” chief Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita told a briefing.

    Muslims should be up in arms about the killing of 17 fellow Muslims in the Qur’an, Koran, Quran protests
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  14. #14  
    Seems to me a book that big is impossible to flush down a toilet anyways...
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    What is the cause of terrorism?
    Fear. Hatred. Desperation.
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    What arguments do the terrorists use to recruit more moderates to their radical cause?
    Any number of facts, half-truths, or outright lies that further matures the fear, hatred, and desperation of the listener
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    What can they whip up hate against the US on?
    Ditto
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Its not freedom, like our prez wants us to believe. The terrorists hate the fact that we support Israel, that we do not respect their culture, and that we invaded an Arab country in large part to keep our fingers on their oil.
    Symptoms perhaps, but not likely root cause.

    Terrorism is not an ideology. It is a tactic used to advance an ideology. It's only justification is the ideology itself (typically only considered justifiable by those who share the ideology, or are sympathetic to it).
  16. #16  
    "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    ... and that we invaded an Arab country in large part to keep our fingers on their oil. ...
    And that's why U.S. forces seized Iraq's oil fields right after Baghdad fell, confiscated their vast oil reserves, and now we can buy all the gasoline we want here at home for just pennies a gallon any time we want.

    Ohhh wait...we didnt do that. Instead, the Federal Government colluded with Halliburton, Diebold, Christians, Jews, fat cats, NASCAR drivers and all the multi-national oil companies so that Bush could get re-elected. Yeah...that's what really happened
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  18. #18  
    Crap!
    Chevron in Atlanta still charges $1.95.

    I'm moving to Boulder.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    Crap!
    Chevron in Atlanta still charges $1.95.

    I'm moving to Boulder.
    $1.95?? Come to Kahleefonia, where it is $2.45!!

    Oh wait, we went to Iraq for oil...
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    Political unrest has pretty much been a constant in the middle east area since the beginning of recorded history.
    Have you heard about the rule of Cyrus The Great or anything about the Persian Empire?

    Throughout many centuries, many countries/areas in the Middle East HAVE seen peace and political stability. The regimes weren't always just and there certainly was corruption in many cases, but this was the case for the vast majority of civilization over the millenia.
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