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  1. NRG
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       #1  
    We have a problem here. Peoples freedom to choose a religion of their choice has just been trampled.


    Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs
    Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca.

    By Kevin Corcoran
    kevin.corcoran@indystar.com


    An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."

    The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth.

    Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court, kept the unusual provision in the couple's divorce decree last year over their fierce objections, court records show. The order does not define a mainstream religion.

    -snip

    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...WS01/505260481
  2. #2  
    Gotta love activist judges......wow.
  3. #3  
    man- i'd take that one to the ACLU and as far as the supreme court... and then impeach the judge... that's just blantant idiocy. usually you see problems wihere one parent is of one faith and the other is something else... but when both parents are the same and the judge is the one disagreeing- that's way beyond the bounds of his power.
    i dont practice or necessarily agree with wiccan or other pagan beliefs but as long as you dont go around killing people for it, i'm all for someone else to practice it...
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  4. #4  
    It does appear to be an overstepping of bounds. However, this may be the key data point in the story:
    Quote Originally Posted by article
    The parents' Wiccan beliefs came to Bradford's attention in a confidential report prepared by the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau, which provides recommendations to the court on child custody and visitation rights
    It is posible the ruling stemmed from the report.
    Here is the law that established the DRCB:
    http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/cod.../ar12/ch2.html
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Gotta love activist judges......wow.

    No, no, no. Only LIBERAL judges are activist. Conservative judges are, uhh, umm, protecting the constituion. Yeah, that's it! When the founding fathers wrote the constitution they only meant freedom of Christian religion.

    Or something like that. But they're definitely NOT activist. Just ask GWB, Tom DeLay, and Rush. They'll set you straight.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    No, no, no. Only LIBERAL judges are activist. Conservative judges are, uhh, umm, protecting the constituion. Yeah, that's it! When the founding fathers wrote the constitution they only meant freedom of Christian religion.

    Or something like that. But they're definitely NOT activist. Just ask GWB, Tom DeLay, and Rush. They'll set you straight.
    I calls it like I sees it - regardless of the political affiliation
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    When the founding fathers wrote the constitution they only meant freedom of Christian religion.

    Um....they were Christian....and didn't know any other religion but Christianity. Freedom of Religion was not twisted and corrupted back then like it is today. In the early Americas, freedom of religion meant you could go to any Christian church, because all churches were Christian.
    They defended Freedom of Religion because the Church of England (Christian, BTW) was the only 'allowed' religion.
  8. NRG
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       #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    Um....they were Christian....and didn't know any other religion but Christianity. Freedom of Religion was not twisted and corrupted back then like it is today. In the early Americas, freedom of religion meant you could go to any Christian church, because all churches were Christian.
    They defended Freedom of Religion because the Church of England (Christian, BTW) was the only 'allowed' religion.
    What in the world are you talking about?
  9. NRG
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       #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    Um....they were Christian....and didn't know any other religion but Christianity. Freedom of Religion was not twisted and corrupted back then like it is today. In the early Americas, freedom of religion meant you could go to any Christian church, because all churches were Christian.
    They defended Freedom of Religion because the Church of England (Christian, BTW) was the only 'allowed' religion.
    The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind ... to filch wealth and power to themselves. [They], in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
    Thomas Jefferson

    The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
    Thomas Jefferson

    Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins ... and you will have sins in abundance. I would not dare to dishonor my Creator's name by [attaching] it to this filthy book [the Bible].
    Thomas Paine

    For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate error so long as reason is free to combat it.
    Thomas Jefferson

    It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God.
    Thomas Jefferson

    Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
    Thomas Jefferson

    Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
    Thomas Paine

    I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
    Thomas Paine

    My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
    Thomas Paine

    Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religions.
    George Washington

    Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.
    George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 726]

    There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness.
    George Washington, address to Congress, 8 January, 1790


    Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.
    George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792

    ...the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction.
    George Washington, 1789, responding to clergy complaints that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, from The Godless Constitution: The Case Against Religious Correctness, Isacc Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore W.W. Norton and Company 101-102


    If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists....
    George Washington, to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover


    To give opinions unsupported by reasons might appear dogmatical.
    George Washington, to Alexander Spotswood, November 22, 1798, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover

    ...I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.
    George Washington, to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover

    As the contempt of the religion of a country by ridiculing any of its ceremonies, or affronting its ministers or votaries, has ever been deeply resented, you are to be particularly careful to restrain every officer from such imprudence and folly, and to punish every instance of it. On the other hand, as far as lies in your power, you are to protect and support the free exercise of religion of the country, and the undisturbed enjoyment of the rights of conscience in religious matters, with your utmost influence and authority.
    George Washington, to Benedict Arnold, September 14, 1775 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind ... to filch wealth and power to themselves. [They], in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
    Thomas Jefferson

    The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
    Thomas Jefferson

    Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins ... and you will have sins in abundance. I would not dare to dishonor my Creator's name by [attaching] it to this filthy book [the Bible].
    Thomas Paine

    For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate error so long as reason is free to combat it.
    Thomas Jefferson

    It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God.
    Thomas Jefferson

    Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
    Thomas Jefferson

    Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
    Thomas Paine

    I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
    Thomas Paine

    My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
    Thomas Paine

    Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religions.
    George Washington

    Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.
    George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 726]

    There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness.
    George Washington, address to Congress, 8 January, 1790


    Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.
    George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792

    ...the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction.
    George Washington, 1789, responding to clergy complaints that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, from The Godless Constitution: The Case Against Religious Correctness, Isacc Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore W.W. Norton and Company 101-102


    If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists....
    George Washington, to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover


    To give opinions unsupported by reasons might appear dogmatical.
    George Washington, to Alexander Spotswood, November 22, 1798, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover

    ...I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.
    George Washington, to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover

    As the contempt of the religion of a country by ridiculing any of its ceremonies, or affronting its ministers or votaries, has ever been deeply resented, you are to be particularly careful to restrain every officer from such imprudence and folly, and to punish every instance of it. On the other hand, as far as lies in your power, you are to protect and support the free exercise of religion of the country, and the undisturbed enjoyment of the rights of conscience in religious matters, with your utmost influence and authority.
    George Washington, to Benedict Arnold, September 14, 1775 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover
    Wow - do you have, like, a book of quotes on the subject? (teasing)
  11. #11  
    What we have here folks is someone who can google.

    NRG, are you pagan yourself? or are you ACLU? Is that why you started this thread in the first place? You sure have a chip on your shoulders.
    Last edited by ekuzco; 05/26/2005 at 03:56 PM.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    What we have here folks is someone who can google.

    NRG, are you pagan yourself? or are you ACLU? Is that why you started this thread in the first place? You sure have a chip on your shoulders.
    you don't have to have a chip on your shoulders to point out when someone's constitutional first ammendment rights are being stripped by a judge. this is a picture of a judge legislating from the bench, precisely what many in the Bush administration and GOP are constantly complaining about. just because the religion is not mainstream, does not mean the issue isn't worth looking at.

    i continue to see a trend in the U.S. where certain mainstream groups, be they political or religious, seem to care and respect solely their own people, potential converts, and the advancement of their agenda, regardless of their founding doctrines preaching the love of all people.
  13. NRG
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       #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    What we have here folks is someone who can google.

    NRG, are you pagan yourself? or are you ACLU? Is that why you started this thread in the first place? You sure have a chip on your shoulders.
    No, I just find it disheartening when America ceases to believe in freedom of religion. No chip on my shoulder, just annoyed when people spout off about America being founded on christian beliefs.
  14. #14  
    ...ummmm, happy birthday NRG
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

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  15. NRG
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       #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    ...ummmm, happy birthday NRG
    Why thank you. I am still recovering from last night.
  16. #16  
    happy birthday NRG
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    What we have here folks is someone who can google.
    Rebut the man's point... He pointed out your mistake in hijacking the founding fathers for your interpretation of the freedom of (Christian) religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    or are you ACLU?
    You make it sound like that's a bad thing.
    I sense somes chips on your shoulder.
    --
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  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    No, I just find it disheartening when America ceases to believe in freedom of religion. No chip on my shoulder, just annoyed when people spout off about America being founded on christian beliefs.
    Life in general must disappoint you terribly.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco

    NRG, are you pagan yourself? or are you ACLU?
    With comments like that you will undoubtly summon that crusader of the oppressed....daThomas
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    With comments like that you will undoubtly summon that crusader of the oppressed....daThomas
    I know...that's what so fun about all this.
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