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  1. #21  
    Hi Ho..Hi Ho..it's off to work we go
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    Um....they were Christian....and didn't know any other religion but Christianity. Freedom of Religion was not twisted and corrupted back then like it is today. In the early Americas, freedom of religion meant you could go to any Christian church, because all churches were Christian.
    They defended Freedom of Religion because the Church of England (Christian, BTW) was the only 'allowed' religion.
    Don't take this personally, but the ignorance of American (and world) history embodied in the above statement is appalling. To state that they "didn't know any other relegion but Christianity" implies they were ignorant peasants. Read some history, and you'll learn quickly that Europeans were well aware of many other religions (ever hear of the crusades?) including Islam, Judaism, and others. And our founding fathers were very well educated men.

    While it's true that MOST early American churces were Christian, it's also true that the Constitution could easily have been written to establish Christianity as the official religion of the country, but that option was explicitly rejected.

    The framers of the Constitution knew about other religions, and deliberately made the "freedom of religion" clause as broad as possible.

    Oh, by the way, your comment "Freedom of Religion was not twisted and corrupted back then like it is today" sickens and appalls me. I suppose you'd like to live in a country like Saudi Arabia, where followers of faiths other than the officially approved one are jailed and tortured. Does it ever bother you that Christianity is a minority religion? That's right, there are far more people that believe other faiths than believe in Christ. Christianity isn't even the largest single religion. There are far more Buddhists and Hindus. Does that make you feel threatened? Feeling insecure in your faith? Is that why you'd like to eliminate other religions from America?

    Thank God the founding fathers were more tolerant, and far more knowledgeable about history, than you are.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    Oh, by the way, your comment "Freedom of Religion was not twisted and corrupted back then like it is today" sickens and appalls me.
    EKUZCO is right: I think that the right wing extremists (the usual list of suspects here .. often seen and discussed on talk radio and Fox) are doing a fine job of twisting and corrupting freedom of religion today...

    (His avatar seems quite appropriate now ..)

    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    Thank God the founding fathers were more tolerant, and far more knowledgeable about history, than you are.
    AMEN! We would never come up with anything as profound as the Constitution if we were writing one today.
    --
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  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    Oh, by the way, your comment "Freedom of Religion was not twisted and corrupted back then like it is today" sickens and appalls me.
    Take some Pepto. So much for your tolerance of others.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Rebut the man's point... He pointed out your mistake in hijacking the founding fathers for your interpretation of the freedom of (Christian) religion.
    I wasn't going to bother, but since you brought it up....

    I do believe the US founding fathers WERE Christian. They were also very intelligent men who could see that most of the leaders of religion are shallow, hypocrites, and only there to get gain. They stated it like it was (and still is today), their disgust for how society (and the adversary) has corrupted religion from its pure form. While I don't agree with some of their viewpoints, I do agree with most of them when I realize where they are coming from and what they are seeing.

    (what comes around goes around)
    --Following his brief inaugural address to the Congress, President George Washington and his party walked over to St. Paul's Church for divine services. His prayer that afternoon was: 'Almighty God, we make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another and for their fellow-citizens of the United States at large.'

    --Say nothing of my religion. It is known to God and myself alone. Its evidence before the world is to be sought in my life: if it has been honest and dutiful to society the religion which has regulated it cannot be a bad one. - Thomas Jefferson

    --that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights - Thomas Jefferson in Declaration of Independence


    What we have further corrupted is the principle of Freedom of Religion. Freedom means a lot of things to many people.
    Let's get back to the topic, now...Freedom of Religion vs Paganism. I for one don't (can't) support paganism in its true nature of the word.

    (since we're quoting....)

    From www.dictionary.com:
    re·li·gion Audio pronunciation of "religion" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
    n.

    1.
    a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
    b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
    2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
    3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
    4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

    pa·gan Audio pronunciation of "pagan" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pgn)
    n.

    1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
    2. One who has no religion.
    3. A non-Christian.
    4. A hedonist.
    5. A Neo-Pagan.


    "one who has no religion" ... that scares me ... to me that says that a pagan is chaotic because they have no sense of principals or set beliefs. When looked at in this light...we can't legally and lawfully allow pagans to walk around or promote their very lawless nature. Honestly if we were to allow paganism, then we would truly lose the peace. As corrupt as society is, I honestly believe, society will never allow this.

    The US was founded on the idea of freedom and liberty, anything that takes away from that is considered to be (in my mind) unlawful.

    So, my case and point, regardless of the judge's political or religious views, I feel he made the right step.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Take some Pepto. So much for your tolerance of others.
    Tolerance of intolerance is not a virtue.
    --
    Aloke
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  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    "one who has no religion" ... that scares me ... to me that says that a pagan is chaotic because they have no sense of principals or set beliefs. When looked at in this light...we can't legally and lawfully allow pagans to walk around or promote their very lawless nature. Honestly if we were to allow paganism, then we would truly lose the peace. As corrupt as society is, I honestly believe, society will never allow this.
    Religious fundamentalists are what scares me. Just look around the world. Most (all?) of the hot zones and wars are now because of religious people who insist that their "god" is better than the other's "gods".

    When facts cannot arbitatre between such disputes, the parties resort to violence. The slippery slope of religion is the one to avoid.

    Religion and virtuous behavior do not go hand in hand. You can have one without the other.

    Some simplistic folks need the mantle of religion (they must be afraid of hot places and creatures in red suits with horns and tails) to behave. If they are able to think for themselves, then there would be no need for a "faith based" adherence to old texts. They can be good and "lawful" without religion.

    Has there been any study showing that religious folks are more law-abiding, honest, non-cheating-on-their-spouses, non-cheating-on-their-taxes, following-the speed-limits, do-unto-others-as-you-would-have-them-do-unto-you, non-violent kind of guys?
    --
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  8. NRG
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       #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    "one who has no religion" ... that scares me ... to me that says that a pagan is chaotic because they have no sense of principals or set beliefs. When looked at in this light...we can't legally and lawfully allow pagans to walk around or promote their very lawless nature. Honestly if we were to allow paganism, then we would truly lose the peace. As corrupt as society is, I honestly believe, society will never allow this.

    The US was founded on the idea of freedom and liberty, anything that takes away from that is considered to be (in my mind) unlawful.

    So, my case and point, regardless of the judge's political or religious views, I feel he made the right step.
    Holy crap are you this blind?! You do not need religion to have set beliefs in doing good and right by man. If you do need religion, then you are far worse off than I would have guessed. "to me that says that a pagan is chaotic because they have no sense of principals or set beliefs. When looked at in this light...we can't legally and lawfully allow pagans to walk around or promote their very lawless nature." This statement scares ME, for the shear fact of the way you arrived at this conclusion. I mean you deducted this reasoning because they don't follow a "mainstream" religion then they are heathens? Come on dude.

    How did the judge come to the right conclusion? Why do you see it as a step in the right direction? How about if I was a judge and I told YOU, that you could not teach your child Christianty because it is "full of fear, hate, and death to those who disobey" and a child should not be brought up around that? How would that make you feel? Would you feel that your freedom of religion was being trampled and a judge had no right to do so?

    It amazes me some of the hardcore religious people cannot see past their own nose and accept the other people's religious views.
    Last edited by NRG; 05/27/2005 at 08:52 AM.
  9. NRG
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       #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Religion and virtuous behavior do not go hand in hand. You can have one without the other.

    Some simplistic folks need the mantle of religion (they must be afraid of hot places and creatures in red suits with horns and tails) to behave. If they are able to think for themselves, then there would be no need for a "faith based" adherence to old texts. They can be good and "lawful" without religion.
    Could not have said it better myself, although I tried.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Religious fundamentalists are what scares me. Just look around the world. Most (all?) of the hot zones and wars are now because of religious people who insist that their "god" is better than the other's "gods".

    When facts cannot arbitatre between such disputes, the parties resort to violence. The slippery slope of religion is the one to avoid.

    Religion and virtuous behavior do not go hand in hand. You can have one without the other.
    I agree with you 100% here...

    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Some simplistic folks need the mantle of religion (they must be afraid of hot places and creatures in red suits with horns and tails) to behave. If they are able to think for themselves, then there would be no need for a "faith based" adherence to old texts. They can be good and "lawful" without religion.
    ...but not here. You read too much into it. Don't overcomplicate it. It's very simple. Religion is what you make it, but by definition is one's personal beliefs. Religion stands for order. Paganism stands for disorder. To be lawful is to live by one's principle or beliefs, or to have religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    Has there been any study showing that religious folks are more law-abiding, honest, non-cheating-on-their-spouses, non-cheating-on-their-taxes, following-the speed-limits, do-unto-others-as-you-would-have-them-do-unto-you, non-violent kind of guys?
    "Let he without sin cast the first stone"
  11. NRG
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       #31  
    Ekcuzo I think this one post from one sums up your train of thought pretty well:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...64&postcount=1

    NEWS From The year 2029

    * Ozone created by electric cars now killing millions in the seventh
    largest country in the world, Mexifornia formally known as California.

    * Japanese scientists have created a camera with such a fast shutter
    speed, they now can photograph a woman with her mouth shut.


    * Spotted Owl plague threatens northwestern United States crops and
    livestock.

    * Baby conceived naturally . . . scientists stumped.

    * Couple petitions court to reinstate heterosexual marriage.

    * Last remaining Fundamentalist Muslim dies in the American Territory of
    the Middle East (formerly known as Iran, Afghanistan, Syria and Lebanon).


    * Iran still closed off; physicists estimate it will take at least 10 more
    years before radioactivity decreases to safe levels.

    * France pleads for global help after being over taken by Jamaica.

    * Castro finally dies at age 112; Cuban cigars can now be imported
    legally, but President Chelsea Clinton has banned all smoking.

    * George Z. Bush says he will run for President in 2036.

    * Postal Service raises price of first class stamp to $17.89 and reduces
    mail delivery to Wednesdays only.

    * 85-year, $75.8 billion study: Diet and Exercise are the keys to weight
    loss.

    * Average weight of Americans drops to 250 lbs.

    * Massachusetts executes last remaining conservative.

    * Supreme Court rules punishment of criminals violates their civil rights.

    * Average height of NBA players now nine feet, seven inches.

    * New federal law requires that all nail clippers, screwdrivers, fly
    swatters and rolled-up newspapers must be registered by January 2036.

    * Congress authorizes direct deposit of formerly illegal political
    contributions to campaign accounts.

    * IRS sets lowest tax rate at 75 percent.


    And last but certainly not the least...


    * Florida voters still don't know how to use a voting machine.
  12. #32  
    ekuzco,

    I like your last posting. We can live (peacefully together) with that.

    Are you plugging your ears (to new ideas?) in your avatar?

    :-)
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  13. #33  
    Where's monkey boy Insertion? on vacation? We need some more comic relief about now.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    It amazes me some of the hardcore religious people cannot see past their own nose and accept the other people's religious views.
    One of the things I most appreciate about this forum is how it has helped me to "see past my own nose."

    I find that this particular exchange is a microcosm of the dilemma that freedom of religion poses (and, no I am not interested in repealing that freedom of religion). The dilemma, as I see it, is this: religious belief, for that matter, any set of principles by which one views the world, do not end with mere mental consideration, but by their very nature also produce behavior. So, when you try to allow varying, and often, conflicting belief systems to co-exist, there will always be conflict as the behaviors are evaluated by according to each observer's own belief system.

    I offer that the founders felt that the cause of establishing a "more perfect union" would be of high enough import to the citizenry that they would find a way to reconcile their differences so as to achieve the shared goal. This generation, though, has become more enamored with the individual freedoms established in the republic's Consitution, than to the noble cuase toward which the collective freedoms point.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    ekuzco,

    I like your last posting. We can live (peacefully together) with that.

    Are you plugging your ears (to new ideas?) in your avatar?

    :-)

    No, it's from the funniest Disney movie I've ever seen... The Emperor's New Groove.
  16. #36  
    I think your "Headlines from 2029" are pretty funny....
    --
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  17. NRG
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       #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    I think your "Headlines from 2029" are pretty funny....
    Some are funny some are just a condescending views from the right.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    This generation, though, has become more enamored with the individual freedoms established in the republic's Consitution, than to the noble cuase toward which the collective freedoms point.
    I think the rise of the internet has pretty much done this. Good or bad, we are much more socially/politically aware to everything than we were even 10 years ago. I think good though. We can get the news however we want it, from all sides of the political spectrum. Now that's entertainment, everyone should agree on that.

    Now if we could just teach everyone else how to effectively 'google'...
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad
    I think your "Headlines from 2029" are pretty funny....
    Thank you, but I can't take credit from it...one of my best friend, an Indian Hindu, sent it to me (I don't know where he got it from.)
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    Thank you, but I can't take credit from it...one of my best friend, an Indian Hindu, sent it to me (I don't know where he got it from.)
    Wasn't me !! (an Indian atheist).
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