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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    the detainees at Gitmo have been classified by the administration as 'enemy combatants'.
    They are classified as "enemy combatants" instead of "prisoners of war" because, technically, we are not at war. I believe they are being given the courtesy of being considered "prisoners of war" and given those rights accordingly. I do not believe they are being treated nearly as badly as a couple of misguided reports would like us to believe otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Second, these same Taliban extremists were funded by the US when they fighting the Soviets were they not? As a matter of perspective, we supported the Talibans in the past and now that we believed that they were acting in conjunction with Bin Laden, we now are against them....kind of ironic.
    You're my friend today and my enemy tomorrow. Let's not think this scenario hasn't played out dozens of times in history. American soldiers fought against the French when they were part of the British colonies, then turned against the British and to the French during the American Revolution. The Russians were our allies during WWII and our enemies not long after. We funded both the Taliban against the Soviets and the Iraqis against the Iranians, and they've both seen how that alliance turned out for them. This is neither new nor shocking, as this isn't the first nor last time this will happen between countries.
    I'm back!
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christinac130
    Do you ever ADD anything to these debates or are you just sent to them by the mods for comic relief?
    MonkeyMistress, I am like the Great Gazoo...I appear when needed.


    Something you should know quite well!
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    I can barely respond to this post it is so ridiculous.
    Thats whats so great about a forum...you dont have to respond. I am not twisting your arm am I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    No one here is talking about all Muslims. We're talking about extremists.
    Now we are. Remember I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    "Who cares? Well, to be frank, probably Muslims. Do I care? Not really but probably because Im not a muslim. Do I think its right to use it to manipulate/coerce them? I don't know...theres pros and cons."
    and you said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    "Yes I should be sensitive to people who videotape themselves beheading people and showing it to the world on the internet."
    When you responded this way when I said Muslims, then I concluded that you meant them as being one and the same. If you didnt mean that, then I appologize for misunderstanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    And again, I don't care if you are offended if I step, ****, ****, bleed, fart, sneeze, vomit etc on your book.
    Its not my book (I thought my post (see above) said Im not Muslim?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    It's a book. By accepting their violent response to an unsubstatiated story about an alleged abuse of their book, you are validating their position.
    I am arguing for a different point of view (BTW-the point of advocacy is that it doesnt matter if I believe in that position...I just recognize there is a different perspective)

    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    All over a book. Next you'll be defending the murdering scifi fan who says he killed because someone roughed up his copy of I, Robot. Speaking of I, Robot, maybe we should kill the reviewers who gave it thumbs down.It is afterall an adaption of a sacred scifi tome.
    I really liked the movie.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Sometimes even the tree that the beaver chops down, falls on the beaver. - clairegrrl
    If I were to fall onto one's beaver whilst chopping down a tree...would you make a sound?
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    They are classified as "enemy combatants" instead of "prisoners of war" because, technically, we are not at war. I believe they are being given the courtesy of being considered "prisoners of war" and given those rights accordingly. I do not believe they are being treated nearly as badly as a couple of misguided reports would like us to believe otherwise.
    I dont know. However based on reports from the International Red Cross and military personnel who have been there, it raises significant doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    You're my friend today and my enemy tomorrow. Let's not think this scenario hasn't played out dozens of times in history. American soldiers fought against the French when they were part of the British colonies, then turned against the British and to the French during the American Revolution. The Russians were our allies during WWII and our enemies not long after. We funded both the Taliban against the Soviets and the Iraqis against the Iranians, and they've both seen how that alliance turned out for them. This is neither new nor shocking, as this isn't the first nor last time this will happen between countries.
    I am not saying that I never thought it happened before but when we invaded Afghanistan, what did we think the Middle East was going to think? (And if you say "I don't care what they think", then the question then becomes "Why do we attempt to create a peace process if we don't care what they think?".
  6. #86  
    All this over hearsay about someone complaining to someone else that they did 'a bad thing' to a book.
    Didn't your kindergarten teacher tell you books are our friends? You naughty person you.
    Books have feelings too!

    <sarcasm off>
    Its no wonder the world hates the US, look at the stupid, idiotic things we argue about, and the fact that we allow an agency like the ACLU to exist.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I dont know. However based on reports from the International Red Cross and military personnel who have been there, it raises significant doubt.
    I am willing to allow US policies to be "bent", quite a bit in some instances, to ensure that another 9/11 doesn't happen. Take that as you will.

    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I am not saying that I never thought it happened before but when we invaded Afghanistan, what did we think the Middle East was going to think?
    This is an interesting point that you bring up. You might argue that the Middle East, and Arab al-Qaeda factions in particular, would care a great bit that we invaded Afghanistan. This article argues that they might not have cared as much as you think.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156185,00.html

    They are "brothers from another mother" in many senses.
    I'm back!
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    This is an interesting point that you bring up. You might argue that the Middle East, and Arab al-Qaeda factions in particular, would care a great bit that we invaded Afghanistan. This article argues that they might not have cared as much as you think.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156185,00.html

    They are "brothers from another mother" in many senses.
    You're quoting FoxNews. Please, if it's not reported on CNN, you're being brainwashed.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  9. #89  
    To all you antiwar nay-sayers out there:
    Ho Chi Minh (of Vietnam) attributes his win (over the US) to John Kerry and the other antiwar people like him.

    Talk about the great divider.
    Is that how you want to be remembered?

    If you don't like the people in office, vote them out. But in the meantime, quit dividing (weakening) our nation more.

    Bush is there for 3 more years....get over it...deal with it. Quit whining. Quit crying. You all are a bunch of babies. You make me sick. We are only helping the terrorists, our common enemy, by continuing to have discord amoungst ourselves.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    You're quoting FoxNews. Please, if it's not reported on CNN, you're being brainwashed.
    You do realize that I actually "looked" for a Fox News article just for effect.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    You do realize that I actually "looked" for a Fox News article just for effect.
    I believe the term is "Fire for Effect"
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  12. #92  
    Ekuzco: you have some interesting points of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    To all you antiwar nay-sayers out there:
    Ho Chi Minh (of Vietnam) attributes his win (over the US) to John Kerry and the other antiwar people like him.
    Why wouldnt he? (Just so you know...just because he attributes it to antiwar protesters doesnt mean that it was the reason why he 'won' as you put it.) Just to throw this back at you in a different way, are YOU saying that we 'lost' the Vietnam War because our boys on the ground didnt have enough resolve to stay the course despite the protests? If you are saying that, then I think we can continue arguing that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    Talk about the great divider.
    Is that how you want to be remembered?
    What does that mean? (Are you implying I am a divider?) Just because I question things means that I am a divider?? By questioning things, we can become even more determined in our course of action (assuming when we question, it validates our cause.) If we question and we realize we arent doing the right thing, then isnt it better to change directions in order to be successful?

    I want to be a person who is remembered for standing up for his ideals. If you view that as a divider, then my appologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    If you don't like the people in office, vote them out. But in the meantime, quit dividing (weakening) our nation more.
    If you think by questioning what we do is weakening our country, then I couldnt disagree with you more.

    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    Bush is there for 3 more years....get over it...deal with it. Quit whining. Quit crying.
    I am over it...but just because he was elected does not mean that every person who didnt vote for him should support his policies? Flip the scenario around, would you be saying the same thing if Kerry was elected...I think not.

    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    You all are a bunch of babies. You make me sick.
    By all means, if you dont like what I am posting, please press the little triangle. I wouldnt want you to get sick.

    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    We are only helping the terrorists, our common enemy, by continuing to have discord amoungst ourselves.
    I disagree. If we are on the right course, our resolve will only be strengthened by an open 'democracy' where discourse is allowed. You do realize that I live in the US right? Land of the free, home of the brave (BTW-I have paid a price and contributed to that cause so I feel I should have as much right as anyone else to participate in a democratic process.)
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    You're quoting FoxNews. Please, if it's not reported on CNN, you're being brainwashed.
    I figured the liberals would give me a little license. I mean, it's not like I linked to Jeff's Crazy Conservative News, or anything like that.

    I could've sworn I remember reading the article on MSNBC (is that liberal enough?), but I couldn't find it, and Googling it turned up this article. I thought MSNBC was linking to the Washington Post (I know, Crazy Conservative News) or something for the article, but I guess not.

    For argument's sake, let's pretend the URL says MSNBC, or even worse, CNN.
    I'm back!
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    For argument's sake, let's pretend the URL says MSNBC, or even worse, CNN.
    As Bill taught us, "Don't ask, don't tell!"
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    As Bill taught us, "Don't ask, don't tell!"
    I think he was better with the "don't tell" part.
    I'm back!
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    Quit whining. Quit crying. You all are a bunch of babies. You make me sick. We are only helping the terrorists, our common enemy, by continuing to have discord amoungst ourselves.
    As far as I can tell, you are the only one whining and crying here. If you have something to say, say it, write down your arguments if you can. If you just want to make a fool out of yourself by insulting others ("You ALL are a bunch of babies"), you may as well take your 17 or so posts and leave.

    Now, assuming you have something to say: Did you ever consider that few things may help terrorists more than the Abu Ghraib scandal, and the way the prisoners of Guantanamo Bay are treated? The Islamistic terrorists depend on as much people as possible hating and despising the US and the Western World. There is no need to make it that easy for them.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  17. #97  
    "Now, assuming you have something to say: Did you ever consider that few things may help terrorists more than the Abu Ghraib scandal, and the way the prisoners of Guantanamo Bay are treated? The Islamistic terrorists depend on as much people as possible hating and despising the US. There is no need to make it that easy for them."

    How would you propose to incarcerate terrorists/combatants? How would you interrogate them? What access to media, lawyers, communications, etc. would you provide? What accomodations would you make regarding their health care and religious practices would you make?

    OK, now answer those questions based upon the belief that they are bent upon killing you, your family, and as many of your countrymen as possible. That they are members of organizations actively seeking to acquire dirty bomb/chemical weapon technology. The same organizations that have twiced perpetrated acts of mass terrorism within your borders.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    How would you propose to incarcerate terrorists/combatants? How would you interrogate them? What access to media, lawyers, communications, etc. would you provide? What accomodations would you make regarding their health care and religious practices would you make?

    OK, now answer those questions based upon the belief that they are bent upon killing you, your family, and as many of your countrymen as possible. That they are members of organizations actively seeking to acquire dirty bomb/chemical weapon technology. The same organizations that have twiced perpetrated acts of mass terrorism within your borders.
    You are mixing things. First, "combatants" picked up in Afghanistan are not at all the same as terrorists. Some of them may be terrorists, some may be combatants, some of the prisoners in Guantanamo were just in the wrong place at the wrong moment. You don't know who is guilty and who is innocent. Hundreds were found innocent and released without charges by US authorities. What do people all over the world learn from that: The US preach justice and human rights, but when they feel like it, they will pick up people whenever they please, fly them to lawless Guantanamo, keep them without charges and without proper access to lawyers.

    Now to your questions. I would go far with people who may be terrorists, but I would not cross the line of basic human rights or the Geneva Convention. These things will backfire for sure. Just look at what happend because of a single Newsweek article: widespread, violent eruption of protest against the US. Do you think this would have happened without Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo in general? Even moderate Muslims will stop trusting the US after things like Abu Ghraib. I would interrogate the prisoners in a tough way, but I would not torture them, for the same reasons. In addition, what are statements you get under torture worth anyway? How can you justify torturing somebody who may be innocent?

    I would do a lot in order to maintain the moral high ground, and not adapt my standards to those of terrorists.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  19. #99  
    I appreciate your response.

    "You are mixing things. First, "combatants" picked up in Afghanistan are not at all the same as terrorists. Some of them may be terrorists, some may be combatants, some of the prisoners in Guantanamo were just in the wrong place at the wrong moment."

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but If they were fighting for the Taliban regime they are terrorists. Agreed that maybe some were just plain unlucky, but they don't get the benefit of the doubt in my book.

    "You don't know who is guilty and who is innocent. Hundreds were found innocent and released without charges by US authorities."

    Help me out here. Hundreds were released by US authorities. Seems there must have been some sort of process in place to make that determination. And that makes us...lawless? And I know that many of those that were released were subsequently
    recaptured/killed in other combat operations.

    "What do people all over the world learn from that: The US preach justice and human rights, but when they feel like it, they will pick up people whenever they please, fly them to lawless Guantanamo, keep them without charges and without proper access to lawyers."

    The absolute irony is that most of those people live in countries where everyone of those men would have been killed on the spot.

    "Now to your questions. I would go far with people who may be terrorists, but I would not cross the line of basic human rights or the Geneva Convention."

    I think we're agreed here, but there are organizations with agendas, and access to a very sympathetic media, that would have it that if we had those guys at Club Med, getting footmassages by the Swedish bikini team and being handf ed grapes that we were torturing them.

    "These things will backfire for sure. Just look at what happend because of a single Newsweek article: widespread, violent eruption of protest against the US. Do you think this would have happened without Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo in general? Even moderate Muslims will stop trusting the US after things like Abu Ghraib."

    No doubt true. One of my best friends worked as an interrogator at Fallujah last fall. A lot of those guys fought to the death simply because they didn't want to be tortured Abu Ghraib style. The fact that the "torture" amounted to little more than college pranks perpetrated by some very sick individuals wearing Americnan uniforms was totally washed away by those images. The fact that the perpetrators of those crimes were already under investigation when the media released those pictures was lost, too.

    Also lost was the element of fear an interrogator has with a newly captured prisoner. Those guys knew our rules as well as our people. That really impacted on the intelligence flow.

    "I would interrogate the prisoners in a tough way, but I would not torture them, for the same reasons. In addition, what are statements you get under torture worth anyway? How can you justify torturing somebody who may be innocent?"

    By tough do you mean sleep deprivation? Meal times constantly changing? Subject to sitting on haunches for extended periods? Cool cells? Human Rights Watch will have your **** for that stuff!

    By the way, that has been US interrogation doctrine for decades. Our doctrine never anticipated this enemy. We've had to improvise.
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    "You don't know who is guilty and who is innocent. Hundreds were found innocent and released without charges by US authorities."

    Help me out here. Hundreds were released by US authorities. Seems there must have been some sort of process in place to make that determination. And that makes us...lawless? And I know that many of those that were released were subsequently recaptured/killed in other combat operations.
    That's an interesting point. On one hand, the fact that "guilty" people were found innocent and released could add to the notion that the whole Guantanmo thing is not a useful operation when it comes to gathering information and finding justice. On the other hand, after being held in Guantanamo under those conditions for several months or years, I would probably start fighting too after my release, even if not involved before that. Wouldn't you?

    "What do people all over the world learn from that: The US preach justice and human rights, but when they feel like it, they will pick up people whenever they please, fly them to lawless Guantanamo, keep them without charges and without proper access to lawyers."

    The absolute irony is that most of those people live in countries where everyone of those men would have been killed on the spot.
    Yes, isn't it cool to know that more sets "us" and the terrorists apart than just the fact that they have the Koran and we don't? E.g. laws that apply to everybody, that innocent people are protected, fair trials, human rights, etc. ...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
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