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  1. #41  
    "More than two years ago, the Pentagon issued detailed rules for handling the Koran at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, requiring U.S. personnel to ensure that the holy book is not placed in "offensive areas such as the floor, near the toilet or sink, near the feet, or dirty/wet areas."
    Those regulations are certainly the ultimate proof that nothing could have possibly gone wrong with the Koran at Guantanamo Bay, right?

    The Pentagon reaction to the Newsweek article was almost funny:
    "Gen. Richard Myers said Thursday that an investigation by the U.S. Southern Command, which has jurisdiction over the U.S. Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, has so far turned up no evidence that that incident took place. "They have looked through the logs, interrogation logs, and they cannot confirm yet that there was ever the case of the toilet incident," Myers said."

    If Myers would have looked up the logs of Abu Ghraib, would they have shown that the guards peed on the prisoners (and much worse)?

    This is not about a flawed news magazine article, this is about a reputation destroyed and human rights violated routinely. Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib will continue to haunt the US, that's the problem with leaving the moral high ground.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    I would go as far as laying a steamer down on it in front of them.
    Finally, something you and I agree on!

    Can someone please remind them that they are prisoners of war, not invited guests spending the night in the Lincoln bedroom. They are not staying in a cushy, minimum security prison because they got convicted of tax evasion. They should be grateful for even being provided a copy of the Koran while they are being held, regardless of what condition the book is in or where it is kept or whatever else they are complaining about.

    Boo hoo, the book is dirty. Be grateful you even have it, along with food and clothing and shelter. As far as I'm concerned, you don't deserve half of what you're getting.

    And to get back on track, why are there people in this thread continuing to bash Bush for "lying", but giving a scholarship to Newsweek? If it's wrong, it's wrong, regardless of which side of the political spectrum you sit on. Meyerweb, don't defend Newsweek and criticize Bush in the same sentence. If one's wrong, the other is wrong. Don't be a hypocrite.
    I'm back!
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    If one's wrong, the other is wrong. Don't be a hypocrite.
    That is exactly the point. The hypocrisy of Bush flogging Newsweek is pretty obvious to me. Bush admin and Newsweek did the same thing, manipulate faulty information to promote an agenda. Newsweek admits they were wrong while the Bush admin does not.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 05/17/2005 at 10:21 AM.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    That is exactly the point. They are both wrong, and while Newsweek has admitted their mistake, the Bush admin has not.
    Neither have others in this thread.

    Case in point:

    Defending how hard it can be for a "reputable" news outlet to fact check:
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    I suppose Fox News, the Washington Times and other conservative rags always are 100% accurate?
    But finds it OK to bash the Bush administration for not doing the same:
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    ...when the administration got virtually everything about Iraq wrong.
    And then of course there's this nugget:
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    Wake up and look at the facts. Learn to think for yourselves, instead of swallowing everying Fox News tells you.
    So I suppose if I listened to everything Newsweek or CBS told me, I'd be "enlightened", right? It must be hard to be able to see it when everyone else can't.

    And from our friend where everything is milk and honey:
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ...human rights violated routinely.
    This stinks worse than a Guantanamo copy of the Koran. Give me a break. As you're so fond of saying, please provide me a link where you see this list:

    UN's Top 10 Human Rights Violators:
    1. China
    2. US
    3. Cuba

    Otherwise, keep your stupid exaggerations to yourself.
    I'm back!
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    uhhhh....what does "Newsweak" have to do with Fox News?
    The fact that conservatives are so quick to skewer Newsweek when they think it did something wrong, but so slow to recognize flaws in their own favored media. If we were going to burn every news magazine, newspaper or other news outlet that made a mistake there would be none left. But Clairgirl acts like Newsweek making a mistake (if, indeed, they did) is some kind of criminal act.

    The point, in case you still don't get it, is that Fox news has made at least as many 'mistakes' as Newsweek, but I don't see Claire or anyone else urging that it be shut down. If that's really too difficult a concept to understand....
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    Facts WRONG ? They just plain lied, when will the the liberal dummycrats stop believing their own lies ?

    No actually there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that this and similar acts took place. Newsweek perhaps went further than they should have, but they had good reason to believe it.

    Unlike most of Fox's news writers, who seem to have written science fiction before going into the news business.

    And speaking of lies, there's a certain resident of the White House who leads the pack when it comes to that. Newsweek would have to work long and hard to match the cost in human suffering created by the lies of the Bush administration. (Where are those WMDs? Even our own military has been forced to admit they never existed. Where's the link between Al Queda and 9-11? Nonexistant. Don't talk to me about lies....)
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Otherwise, keep your stupid exaggerations to yourself.
    Is this REALLY what you want? If you don't like the 'stupid exaggerations', then everyone who has them should not be allowed to post at TC in the off topic thread?

    One of the reasons I come to this thread is be 'enlightened'. I want to know how and why the 'other' side thinks the way it does. Understanding really cant develop as much as it could if we kept our 'stupid exaggerations' to ourselves.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Is this REALLY what you want? If you don't like the 'stupid exaggerations', then everyone who has them should not be allowed to post at TC in the off topic thread?

    One of the reasons I come to this thread is be 'enlightened'. I want to know how and why the 'other' side thinks the way it does. Understanding really cant develop as much as it could if we kept our 'stupid exaggerations' to ourselves.
    Clulup will be the first to call Clairegrrl out on her hyperbole when she uses it to make a point. He'll ask for proof and links and supporting documentation until he's red in the face. This is far from hyperbole. I see no point in giving him a scholarship.

    This:
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ...human rights violated routinely
    is an assinine statement with absolutely no basis in fact, and has no right to be in what is still a semi-civilized discussion. You won't "understand" anything if you continue to be "enlightened" by statements that make Newsweek look reputable.
    I'm back!
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    The fact that conservatives are so quick to skewer Newsweek when they think it did something wrong, but so slow to recognize flaws in their own favored media. If we were going to burn every news magazine, newspaper or other news outlet that made a mistake there would be none left. But Clairgirl acts like Newsweek making a mistake (if, indeed, they did) is some kind of criminal act.

    The point, in case you still don't get it, is that Fox news has made at least as many 'mistakes' as Newsweek, but I don't see Claire or anyone else urging that it be shut down. If that's really too difficult a concept to understand....
    And you don't think the Left does this too? Please, give me a break. It plays on both sides, you're doing it in this thread! Don't act so pure.


    And I resent this crap about Fox News brainwashing. As if before Fox, I was but a lump, without thought or conscience. Thank you Rupert for your giant nipple. I had no form of function until you breathed life into my useless carcass.

    It get's old after awhile. (especially since I watch FNC all of about an hour a week.)
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Yes I should be sensitive to people who videotape themselves beheading people and showing it to the world on the internet.
    So when I say 'muslims' you only see the extremists the kill and torture people? (You do see the error in this without me even bringing it out right?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    You totally missed the point. It's a book. It's paper and ink. It has no spritual value other than that assigned to it by a person.
    First of all, what you are saying really is subjective...it has no value to you. But I understand your point. Its a book to me as well. I am not Muslim but I can at least put myself in a position to realize its signifigance to others of religious faith. Thats all I intended to do when I posted about your comment...just try looking at it from the Muslim side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Or maybe just let them all go and not bother them any more?
    Again, you are painting the entire Muslim faith with one broad stroke. Doesnt it irritate you when you hear people from other countries say "Americans are (fill in your description.)" I am American but just because I am doesnt mean I do or approve of all the things that 'Americans' have done. You can agree with that right?
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Thank you Rupert for your giant nipple.
    Heh, heh. You said "giant nipple". You just don't get enough of that around here.

    Hopefully this thread will make it to his desk, I'd love to see the look on his face when he reads that.
    I'm back!
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    No actually there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that this and similar acts took place. Newsweek perhaps went further than they should have, but they had good reason to believe it.

    Unlike most of Fox's news writers, who seem to have written science fiction before going into the news business.

    And speaking of lies, there's a certain resident of the White House who leads the pack when it comes to that. Newsweek would have to work long and hard to match the cost in human suffering created by the lies of the Bush administration. (Where are those WMDs? Even our own military has been forced to admit they never existed. Where's the link between Al Queda and 9-11? Nonexistant. Don't talk to me about lies....)
    Typical, when wrong, change the subject !

    Were weren't talking Bush's lies, we were talking that you were DEAD WRONG ! You just shift focus, admit to your error, all politicians lie !
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    So when I say 'muslims' you only see the extremists the kill and torture people?
    The people who are being "deprived" of a "clean" Koran in Guantanamo ARE the extremists.
    I'm back!
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    I see no point in giving him a scholarship.
    I do think there is a difference between 'giving him a scholarship' and then telling someone not to comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    This: is an assinine statement with absolutely no basis in fact, and has no right to be in what is still a semi-civilized discussion.
    And YOU should decide what should be in 'our' discussion. I am not trying to irritate you but since when should you decide what goes into the discussion?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    You won't "understand" anything if you continue to be "enlightened" by statements that make Newsweek look reputable.
    I don't know where I am at on this Newsweek issue. I am learning and forming my own opinion in large part due to everyones (including yours) posts.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    This stinks worse than a Guantanamo copy of the Koran. Give me a break. As you're so fond of saying, please provide me a link where you see this list:

    UN's Top 10 Human Rights Violators:
    1. China
    2. US
    3. Cuba

    Otherwise, keep your stupid exaggerations to yourself.
    I never said nor meant that the US are as bad as China or Cuba when it comes to human rights. But in Guantanamo Bay hundreds of prisoners are held without charges under conditions which would clearly be illegal in the United States and in any other civilized country. Many prisoners were/are under age, many were/are innocent, as you can tell from that fact that they were released (after months or years) without charges. That's what I meant by "human rights routinely violated".

    Guantanamo set the stage for Abu Ghraib. Maybe Lynddie England and the others did not get direct orders to act as they did, but they followed the bad example and the encouragement of Guantanamo.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    The people who are being "deprived" of a "clean" Koran in Guantanamo ARE the extremists.
    You do realize that 'we' have already sent some of these 'extremists', as you put it, back to their own countries right? If they are such extremists, why did we let them go?? Because they didnt have any intel that we could use or we determined them not to be of a high enough threat to keep detained. By that rationale, how can they be extremists?

    Are you saying that everyone at Gitmo is an extremist like the ones who have beheaded people? If you are making that claim, what is the basis? Because (as many were) they were caught fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan (as some were.) That makes them extremists?
  17. #57  
    I think the real malicious person here is the high ranking official who fed this story to Newsweek in the first place. Someone who dupes Newsweek into printing a story that cost lives, whether in the interests of zinging the liberal media or any other reason, does not deserve protection as an anonymous source.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 05/17/2005 at 11:15 AM.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I do think there is a difference between 'giving him a scholarship' and then telling someone not to comment.
    I absolutely agree with you. Which is why I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    As you're so fond of saying, please provide me a link where you see this list:

    UN's Top 10 Human Rights Violators:
    1. China
    2. US
    3. Cuba

    Otherwise, keep your stupid exaggerations to yourself.
    If he can provide proof, then obviously it's germane to the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    And YOU should decide what should be in 'our' discussion. I am not trying to irritate you but since when should you decide what goes into the discussion?
    No, I'm not the keeper of the discussion, nor do I want to be. But I think we should try to stick to the facts as best as possible, accounting for the problem that both sides will see different levels of "fact". After clulup provides documentation for his "fact", then it's OK. Until then, it's just baseless crap without a point except to inflame. If this turns into a flame war, it will get much uglier and won't last long before the mods intervene.

    If we're just gonna let anyone toss out whatever they want as support for their argument, then I'll just say "I am the keeper of this discussion and whoever doesn't agree with me is wrong! Only my minions and myself know the truth! End of discussion!"

    That's got the same relevance as clulup's statement.
    I'm back!
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    If he can provide proof, then obviously it's germane to the discussion.
    See my post above for clarification of my statement.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I think the real malicious person here is the high ranking official who fed this story to Newsweek in the first place. Someone who dupes Newsweek into printing a story that cost lives, whether in the interests of zinging the liberal media or any other reason, does not deserve protection as an anonymous source.
    Well to be fair, that person may not have even been malicious when he/she gave the comment. However, Newsweek has the responsibility of fact checking. The military rep that didnt 'deny' the story didnt help matters either. There are lots of problems on both sides.
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