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  1.    #281  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    ...I love my country and want it to be a positive example for the rest of the world.
    You must not ever pay attention to anything that clulup says, cause he believes that the US can never be a shining example of anything. We arent consensus builders in the UN. Let's see...ummm, we dont give enough on a per capita basis to the cause de jour. Ummm...the murder rate is too high and oh yeah...some baseball players have used steroids. And, and we dont have a nice reading room for detainees at Gitmo.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  2. #282  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    So the fact that there have been elections in both Afg. and Iraq and that the people are significantly less oppressed means nothing?
    I wouldnt say its nothing but look at in context. We 'paid' (monetarily and with american lives) for that election, the people who 'won' were who this administration wanted to win. Is it better than nothing...yeah, but arguably, not by much.

    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Wouldn't you agree the winning hearts and minds thing we've discussed should and does take longer than 2 or 3 years and in that case wouldn't that argue for patience before you assess success or failure?
    Winning the hearts and minds is important. However, we have over 130,000 troops in the area (I am sure we have spy satellites and unmanned drones flying all the time). We are offering 100's of thousands of dollars for the 'people' to turn over the terrorists and we still cant capture Bin Laden or Zarqawi (?). IF our intention is to win the hearts and minds, I dont think we are doing a good job of it.

    The news just reported today that (allegedly) US forces holding Sadaam have released photos of him in his underwear for crying out loud. Talk about shooting ourselves int he foot!

    It will be another 2 more years before Iraq has its own security forces in place and we can begin to argue that we have won the hearts and minds.

    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    I happend to be of the mindset that moving toward a democratic - hell even socialist for that matter - government in the middle-east, even with a country or 2 to begin will will pay dividends in the long-run but that it's not an overnight process.
    I couldnt agree with you more. However, I think its a matter of priorities. We are so worried about what happens in the middle east that we cant successfully handle our domestic issues. (BTW-when this war was started, did you really envision us embroiled in house-to-house fighting in Iraq? I didnt and I definitely didnt sign on to the idea of occupying Iraq.)

    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    And, please don't take this as a confrontational question as it is not meant to be but, how much of your position in this matter is based upon a desire that the bush administration not be successful in this endeaver? (Note, I am specifically referring to the Bush administration and not the US as a whole).
    That is a fair question...but to be honest...there are parts of Pres. Bush that I like. Not that this part of your question matters (because my argument really is independent of my motives) but I had a hard time when I cast my vote for Kerry. Pres. Bush inherited some issues, he stood firm on his positions and I thought getting rid of Sadaam wasnt that bad of idea. You have to remember when people disagree with this administrations policies, we (at least most of us) love this country. The fact that I can disagree is testimony to how great our system of government.

    My motivation is that America is a leader for democracy, freedom and justice. (it doesnt have to be the only leader, but we must set the example)
  3. #283  
    Quote Originally Posted by ekuzco
    hmmm...someone is deleting their posts here
    Who is?
  4. #284  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    You must not ever pay attention to anything that clulup says, cause he believes that the US can never be a shining example of anything. We arent consensus builders in the UN. Let's see...ummm, we dont give enough on a per capita basis to the cause de jour. Ummm...the murder rate is too high and oh yeah...some baseball players have used steroids. And, and we dont have a nice reading room for detainees at Gitmo.
    If we must pile on, you left out:

    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  5. #285  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Not a challenge but a legit question: In dealing with this type of enemy, how would you suggest critical information be obtained?
    One possible way is to not put ourselves in a position of desperation where we have to torture. Lets put some more money into the intelligence sector, more money for satellites and 'snooping' technology, more money to have people 'in country' infiltrating these terrorist organizations. By being proactive, we will have less of a need to be reactive.
  6. #286  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    I'd have to agree - including the "if we torture" part. Boy, it's a tough question when you weigh the need for intel and how many lives it can save against commonly held beliefs on humane treatment...
    I think everyone can agree that it is a very Hobbesian choice, nobody likes to limit themselves to the 'rock and a hard space' scenario.

    We should always be 'forward thinking'...so we have more options available.
  7. #287  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    You must not ever pay attention to anything that clulup says, cause he believes that the US can never be a shining example of anything. We arent consensus builders in the UN. Let's see...ummm, we dont give enough on a per capita basis to the cause de jour. Ummm...the murder rate is too high and oh yeah...some baseball players have used steroids. And, and we dont have a nice reading room for detainees at Gitmo.
    Why the generalization about clulup? Generalizations could be made about a lot of people on this board (including you) but I think each person brings 'something' to the discussion.
  8. #288  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    This is true. But I'm still one who believes there are times you need to get certain intel, by any means necessary.
    I couldnt agree with this more, but Cellmatrix, to allay your fears, no, I am not some sort of sadistic torturer looking to break fingers off any detainee I can find. I too would prefer that the CIA didn't have to resort to such tactics to get information, but I can also see where it can be used as a "motivator". In a perfect world, the criminals would realize there's no way out for them and they would readily give up the information, but we all know that's not going to happen. I also love this country and I'm desperate to ensure that something like 9/11 doesn't happen again, even if that means giving up some of my own freedoms that I've taken for granted (which is an entire thread unto itself).

    t2gungho makes an excellent point about not even getting into this position to begin with, we should spend more money on humint so that we're not behind in our intelligence. This is something the CIA has been fighting for ever since the Berlin Wall came down, there has been serious cutbacks in their operating budget for quite some time, and it has really shown since about 2000.
    I'm back!
  9. #289  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    You must have a truck, I only have a Jeep
    I have a Jeep too! '99 Grand Cherokee.
    I'm back!
  10. #290  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I think we need a mindset reset
    Where do I find the button?
  11. #291  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Where do I find the button?
    On the back, under the battery door...oh wait, wrong button.


    We're so gonna get this dude soon....
    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines

    Then can I torture him? Would anyone have a problem with him being tortured, err, I mean, "interrogated"?
    I'm back!
  12. #292  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Where do I find the button?
    It's that contraption in Men In Black 2.
  13.    #293  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Why the generalization about clulup? Generalizations could be made about a lot of people on this board (including you) but I think each person brings 'something' to the discussion.
    Yes...including me...ohhh...and dont forget yourself
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  14.    #294  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    I have a Jeep too! '99 Grand Cherokee.
    My Jeep's name is Silly Sally
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  15. #295  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    We're so gonna get this dude soon....
    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...home-headlines
    From your lips to God's ears.....
  16. #296  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I wouldnt say its nothing but look at in context. We 'paid' (monetarily and with american lives) for that election, the people who 'won' were who this administration wanted to win. Is it better than nothing...yeah, but arguably, not by much.
    I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one as I feel it is significant progress.
  17. #297  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Why the generalization about clulup? Generalizations could be made about a lot of people on this board (including you) but I think each person brings 'something' to the discussion.
    You're right, everyone brings something....my issue with clulup is the continuous rant against the US as if the entirety of what America brings to the table is far out-weighed by those things clulup does not agree with.
  18. #298  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one as I feel it is significant progress.
    I agree The real test on whether its signifigant will be if its sustainable. My greatest fear is that when we eventually do pull our troops out that things revert back to the status quo.

    The argument has been made before that the US doesnt really understand how entrenched politics and religion are in the Islamic world. As an American, my hope is that we are successful.
  19. #299  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    My Jeep's name is Silly Sally
    Wow, that is one dirty Jeep. Mine doesn't have a name, I guess that's why she wasn't so good to me in the early years.
    I'm back!
  20. #300  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I agree The real test on whether its signifigant will be if its sustainable. My greatest fear is that when we eventually do pull our troops out that things revert back to the status quo.
    Amen, brother!

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