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  1.    #261  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Cell, as far as giving me the "benefit of the doubt", remember interrogation <> torture. I used the word "interrogation", you used the word "torture". Try not to get us confused again.
    I couldnt have said it better myself. Wait!! I did say it better
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  2. #262  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    A lot has gone on in here since I last appeared!

    Cell, as far as giving me the "benefit of the doubt", remember interrogation <> torture. I used the word "interrogation", you used the word "torture". Try not to get us confused again.
    here is what I was referring to:

    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    But as I stated earlier, I am willing to allow US policies on interrogation to be "bent", sometimes severely, to prevent another 9/11. Of course, I don't condone this for the average Taliban footsoldier where there is nothing to gain, but in the case of Maj. Gen. Mowhoush, I can see where excelerated techniques may have been necessary.
    hmmmm .......severely bent, accelerated interrogation and torture

    yeah right, how different these things are. Sorry to "misstate" your position.
  3. #263  
    Seems like:
    "It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is. ..." all over again

    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  4. #264  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    here is what I was referring to:

    hmmmm .......severely bent, accelerated interrogation and torture

    yeah right, how different these things are. Sorry to "misstate" your position.
    Yeah, it was a highly misleading statement by jmill72x, I was strongly confused, too. But I admit he made it more clear later :
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    I never used the word "torture", nor did I say that torturing anyone to death is OK, nor did I say that Gen. Mowoush got what he deserved. I said that in the right circumstances, which I am willing to leave up to the CIA and/or military, that "bending" the rules of interrogation is OK. Why does that automatically translate to physical torture? There are many methods of mental or emotional torture that we choose not to use that, like I said earlier, do not involve breaking bones or chopping off fingers. Sensory deprivation can be a very motivating method, moreso than pain, because eventually you can block it out, or pass out, making you far less informative. And nowhere in any of my threads did I say or even imply that I condone torturing someone to death.
    ...
    My earlier statements may have sounded as if I condone torturing to death, which I do not. When I said "excelerated techniques" for Mowhoush, I didn't quite mean that. If they had to make him scream a bit or miss a few meals, I don't have a problem with that.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  5. #265  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Sorry to "misstate" your position.
    If you're going to quote me, at least do it correctly. Is this jounalism by Newsweek?

    I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    I am willing to allow US policies on interrogation to be "bent", sometimes severely, to prevent another 9/11.
    Notice the use of "I". That means it's my opinion. This does not mean that this is what is currently happening, despite what you may think.

    In a separate post, I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    We captured Al Qaeda's #3 man last week. Supposedly that was a direct result of intelligence gathered from the interrogation of captured Al Qaeda operatives.
    This is from "the news", surely you've heard of it. It occurs all over the place, and gets reported in outlets outside of CNN or Newsweek. Here's what you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Its great that torture and prisoner abuse helped us to get the #3 al queda person.
    Now if you don't mind, do me a favor and point out where I said that they tortured anyone to get to al-Libbi. Or are you just that narrow-minded that interrogation automatically means torture?
    I'm back!
  6. #266  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    I couldnt have said it better myself. Wait!! I did say it better
    Remember, it's all about the delivery.
    I'm back!
  7. #267  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Remember, it's all about the delivery.
    Remember...


    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  8. #268  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Insurance Salesman: "So you sign?"
    Client: "Well, I have to say the other offer... AAARGH! What are you doing?!?"
    Insurance Salesman: "So you sign now?"
    Client: "I - AAAAARrgh... OK, OK, give me the pen!"

    And my business partner wonders why I sell so many policies.


    Thanks for the laugh clulup.
  9. #269  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Remember...


    KHAN!!!!!

    By far the best of those movies.
    I'm back!
  10. #270  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Of course its necessary for Pres. Bush to spin the situation to us! Since 3/19/03 we have lost over 1500 American Lives , there's little question that the Iraq war and its bloody aftermath will cost $200 billion and many would argue that all we have done is remove Sadaam. We dont have an established government (because insurgents keep assasinating those who want to lead), we havent gotten Bin Laden, we still have 130,000? troops still over there (and no timeline on when they might possibly be coming home). [We dont even have a litmus test for when they 'should' come home.]

    I would say that Pres. Bush needs to be on tv much more to 'sell' us on how and why we are in Iraq. Remember, we were told that Sadaam had weapons of mass destruction and links to Al Queda. I am going out on a limb here but I think it qualifies as political 'spinning'.
    So the fact that there have been elections in both Afg. and Iraq and that the people are significantly less oppressed means nothing?

    Wouldn't you agree the winning hearts and minds thing we've discussed should and does take longer than 2 or 3 years and in that case wouldn't that argue for patience before you assess success or failure?

    I happend to be of the mindset that moving toward a democratic - hell even socialist for that matter - government in the middle-east, even with a country or 2 to begin will will pay dividends in the long-run but that it's not an overnight process.

    And, please don't take this as a confrontational question as it is not meant to be but, how much of your position in this matter is based upon a desire that the Bush administration not be successful in this endeaver? (Note, I am specifically referring to the Bush administration and not the US as a whole).
    Last edited by treo2die4; 05/20/2005 at 11:21 AM.
  11. #271  
    He said that I said that they said that he said that .....

    You scream, I scream we all scream for ice cream
  12. #272  
    hmmm...someone is deleting their posts here
  13. #273  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    If you're going to quote me, at least do it correctly. Is this jounalism by Newsweek?

    I said:

    Notice the use of "I". That means it's my opinion. This does not mean that this is what is currently happening, despite what you may think.

    In a separate post, I said:

    This is from "the news", surely you've heard of it. It occurs all over the place, and gets reported in outlets outside of CNN or Newsweek. Here's what you said:


    Now if you don't mind, do me a favor and point out where I said that they tortured anyone to get to al-Libbi. Or are you just that narrow-minded that interrogation automatically means torture?
    It really does not matter to me how you think torture differs from accellerated severely bent interrogation. And in the context of how you meant to say it and how I said it, whether newsweek is being quoted or you are etc. Even though I still do not completely understand what the differences are, the only thing that concerns me is I did not mean to put words in your mouth. Obviously you think I did, and for that I apologize.

    My previous statement "its great that torture and prisoner abuse led to the capture of al queda #3" I am glad to retract. If we captured him without torture, I would be pleased, because I am against torture.

    It does not make me happy to think of instances of torture by the US, it makes me embarrassed because I love my country and want it to be a positive example for the rest of the world.
  14. #274  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    It does not make me happy to think of instances of torture by the US, it makes me embarrassed because I love my country and want it to be a positive example for the rest of the world.
    Not a challenge but a legit question: In dealing with this type of enemy, how would you suggest critical information be obtained?
  15. #275  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    IF
    If we torture...its probably best not to have the military do it. Its too hard to keep it a secret with the military. Probably better to have the super spooks in the CIA do it. (And lets not kid ourselves...the CIA already are torturing (or have in the past.)
    I'd have to agree - including the "if we torture" part. Boy, it's a tough question when you weigh the need for intel and how many lives it can save against commonly held beliefs on humane treatment...
  16. #276  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Not a challenge but a legit question: In dealing with this type of enemy, how would you suggest critical information be obtained?
    I am of the view that torture just makes people say stuff they think you want to hear, not neccessarily what is true.
  17. #277  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I am of the view that torture just makes people say stuff they think you want to hear, not neccessarily what is true.
    This is true. But I'm still one who believes there are times you need to get certain intel, by any means necessary.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  18. #278  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I am of the view that torture just makes people say stuff they think you want to hear, not neccessarily what is true.
    Fair enough, but how would you proceed?
    Last edited by treo2die4; 05/20/2005 at 11:29 AM.
  19.    #279  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Remember, it's all about the delivery.
    You must have a truck, I only have a Jeep
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  20.    #280  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    ...I happend to be of the mindset ..
    I think we need a mindset reset
    Well behaved women rarely make history

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