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  1. #201  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dee Zaster
    Nudist, dlbrummels and clairegrrl your personal attacks and tasteless comments about people are tiresome.
    I never thought of them as tasteless. Frankly, I rather think their comments taste like chicken...
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  2. #202  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Hey, I thought this was Pee-Wee Jedi talk??
    This is what happens when you disappear for hours.
    I'm back!
  3. #203  
    MonkeyMan, Did you sleep well... have sweet dreams?
  4. #204  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    We captured Al Qaeda's #3 man last week. Supposedly that was a direct result of intelligence gathered from the interrogation of captured Al Qaeda operatives. They are not as robotic and single-minded as bin Laden and Zaqwari would like for us to believe.
    "American military commanders in Baghdad and Washington gave a sobering new assessment on Wednesday of the war in Iraq, adding to the mood of anxiety that prompted Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to come to Baghdad last weekend to consult with the new government.

    In interviews and briefings this week, some of the generals pulled back from recent suggestions, some by the same officers, that positive trends in Iraq could allow a major drawdown in the 138,000 American troops late this year or early in 2006. One officer suggested Wednesday that American military involvement could last "many years."

    Gen. John P. Abizaid, the top American officer in the Middle East, said in a briefing in Washington that one problem was the disappointing progress in developing Iraqi police units cohesive enough to mount an effective challenge to insurgents and allow American forces to begin stepping back from the fighting. General Abizaid, who speaks with President Bush and Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld regularly, was in Washington this week for a meeting of regional commanders.
    In Baghdad, a senior officer said Wednesday in a background briefing that the 21 car bombings in Baghdad so far this month almost matched the total of 25 in all of last year."

    The minute you realize this isn't black hats versus whitte hats is the moment you will have a greater understanding of this issue.
  5. #205  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christinac130
    MonkeyMan, Did you sleep well... have sweet dreams?
    Yes thank you...but I have dried spittle encrusted on my chin.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  6. #206  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    The minute you realize this isn't black hats versus whitte hats is the moment you will have a greater understanding of this issue.
    Three things:

    1) What does an increase in car bombings have to do with a cut and dry issue? Are the bombers "gray hats"
    2) I have no idea what your snippet has to do with what we've been talking about for the past two days, nor does it have anything to do with my quote.
    3) Do you somehow have a greater understanding of the issue than the rest of us?
    I'm back!
  7. #207  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Yes thank you...but I have dried spittle encrusted on my chin.
    Is that what that is?
    I'm back!
  8. #208  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Is that what that is?
    One can only hope...
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  9. #209  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Three things:

    Are the bombers "gray hats"
    I've heard Art Bell speak of the Grays...don't wanna get mixed up with them!
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  10.    #210  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    One can only hope...
    have you been seein' Bill Clinton again??
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  11. #211  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    This goes back to the question that was posed earlier as to whether or not a child's life is worth 300 or 3000 lives.

    Is it to you?

    In that case, do the means justify the end?
    From a truly utilitarian standpoint, one life sacrificed to save 2 lives is worth it. The problem is that is that we never will really know, prior to the decision to torture, how many lives will be saved by the intel you gather.
  12. #212  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    Well said.......it's a tough question for me as I am in agreement with the guts of your statements but find it difficult to rather idlely sit by winning the hearts and minds while seeing, and expecting to see in the future, many innocent people die in the process. The patience and toll associated with the hearts and minds in this case may, I fear, be too large a cost to bare.....
    Well its not an easy issue. Plus, when I say 'win the hearts and minds', that in no way implies that I am talking about the extremists. I dont think they are open to hear any type of message like that. I think the target audience needs to be the moderates. These are the people who have a vested interest in the country and also have information (or connections to people who have information) on these extremists attacks. IMO I think some of the intelligence that has led to captures has occurred from either bribery or through other non torturous methods. (Im not naive enough to think we havent gotten any intel from torturing.)

    I personally dont believe that a low level terrorist has much information about Bin Laden or the upper level associates for good reason...they dont want them to know (in case they get caught). It is far easier to control them if they don't know all the details (i.e. like the planning and execution of the car bombings.) How many people have to know to conduct that...2 (bomb maker and bomb detonator.)

    Overall, I think an ends justifies the means argument can be made for torture. However, as I have said in other posts, its subjective, you never really know how much intel the person has, and if it leaks out that you are torturing, its fuel to the fire for other extremists to conduct more campaigns and recruit members.
  13. #213  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    From a truly utilitarian standpoint, one life sacrificed to save 2 lives is worth it. The problem is that is that we never will really know, prior to the decision to torture, how many lives will be saved by the intel you gather.
    Or conversely how many more lives might be lost through torture? Through enlisting more moderate arabs into the radical camp.

    One can equate sexual humiliation in one's own mind with frat hazing if one wishes, or as was hypothetically said here that the Koran is just a book, who cares if it goes in the toilet. But a whole lot of arabs view these things as the ultimate display of disrespect to them as a people and to their religion.

    Its great that torture and prisoner abuse helped us to get the #3 al queda person. But a policy that further alienates moderate arabs from our cause, and creates another dozen people to fill the #3 vacancy slot, one's starts to ask, aside from the moral question, is this a good practical policy?

    The Bush admin is trying to push the idea that all arabs strive for is democracy and freedom. Well they also want wealth and respect, just as much, in my opinion. We can't say we are giving them freedom and have the arabs like us, when they think we have no respect for their religion or culture and when they think that our real motive is to horn in on their oil.

    I think the quagmire we are treading water in right now in Iraq arises directly from a lack of insight into this problem.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 05/19/2005 at 07:14 PM.
  14. #214  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    You can equate sexual humiliation in your own mind with frat hazing if you wish, or as was hypothetically said here that the Koran is just a book, who cares if it goes in the toilet. But a whole lot of arabs view this as the ultimate display of disrespect to them as a people and to their religion.

    Its great that torture and prisoner abuse helped us to get the #3 al queda person. But a policy that further alienates moderate arabs from our cause, and creates another dozen people to fill the #3 vacancy slot, you start to ask, aside from the moral question, is this a good practical policy?

    The Bush admin is trying to push the idea that all arabs strive for is democracy and freedom. Well they also want wealth and respect, just as much, in my opinion. You can't say you are giving them freedom and have the arabs like you, when they think you have no respect for their religion or culture and when they think that your real motive is to horn in on their oil.

    I think the quagmire we are treading water in right now in Iraq arises directly from a lack of insight into this problem.
    You are quoting me and then saying things that, at least over the last few days of posts, I don't agree with and I have advocated against. Im confused (which has happened before. )
  15. #215  
    t2gungho

    Only the first sentence of my post was directed at your comment. The rest of the argument was directed towards the generic "you" because I hate to use the passive third person "one" if I can avoid it. But I have edited the post and put in the passive "one". There is no need at all to defend anything you said earlier. I do appreciate your well thought out comments in this forum.

    regards,

    cell
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 05/19/2005 at 07:25 PM.
  16. #216  
    What, you don't appreciate my light saber remarks??
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  17.    #217  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Its great that torture and prisoner abuse helped us to get the #3 al queda person.
    You must be receiving information that no one else on this board has access to. I certainly havent heard anything linking torture and abuse to the arrest of Abu Faraj al-Libbi by the Pakistanis.

    While it may seem to further your adgenda, it has no basis in fact as far as I can see.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  18. #218  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    have you been seein' Bill Clinton again??
    I want you to listen to me good, I did not have sexual relations...

    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  19. #219  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    You must be receiving information that no one else on this board has access to. I certainly havent heard anything linking torture and abuse to the arrest of Abu Faraj al-Libbi by the Pakistanis.

    While it may seem to further your adgenda, it has no basis in fact as far as I can see.
    Actually I think that torture is not a good policy, so according to my "adgenda" it would be better if the 3# guy was not found via this method.

    I was trying to give another one of your fellow conservatives the "benefit of the doubt" by considering their post to be correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    We captured Al Qaeda's #3 man last week. Supposedly that was a direct result of intelligence gathered from the interrogation of captured Al Qaeda operatives.
    its called fairness
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 05/19/2005 at 07:54 PM.
  20.    #220  
    His comment was "Supposedly that was a direct result of intelligence gathered from the interrogation of captured Al Qaeda operatives." I dont see anything in what jmill72x said, or anything in the press that would lead me to believe that the statement you made was accurate. "Its great that torture and prisoner abuse helped us to get the #3 al queda person."

    It's great to "be fair", but probably more important to be accurate, which is what this thread was about.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
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