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  1. #181  
    Ok, back on topic:

    "Red Cross backs claims of Koran abuse in US prison camp
    By Cam Simpson and Mark Silva in Washington
    May 20, 2005

    The Pentagon was made aware three years ago that US personnel might have been desecrating or mishandling Korans at the Guantanamo Bay prison camp in Cuba, the International Committee of the Red Cross says.

    Credible information on the issue had been given to the Pentagon in confidential reports in 2002 and early 2003, Simon Schorno, a Red Cross spokesman, said. Representatives of the Red Cross, who have played a key role in investigating abuse allegations at Guantanamo Bay and other US military prisons, had never witnessed such incidents first-hand during visits, but Red Cross delegates had gathered and corroborated enough similar, independent reports from detainees to raise the issue several times with Guantanamo commanders and with Pentagon officials, Mr Schorno said on Wednesday."
    (Source)
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  2. #182  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Let's not forget the "American Taliban" John Walker Lindh. He was an American and an enemy combatant. I don't believe a distinction was made between the two.
    I think there was a legal issue presented that we couldnt treat him as an enemy combatant if indeed he was still an american. I think in the end, the government settled with a plea bargain for him so the legal issue would not be raised.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    Everyone can be broken. People just react to different "pressure points". Some may be physical, some may be psychological/emotional.
    Everyone CAN be broken but not everyone IS broken. The distinction is important because if someone is as fanatical as some of the extremist appear to be, they will not talk no matter what we do (up and until we kill them with torture.)
  3. #183  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Everyone CAN be broken but not everyone IS broken. The distinction is important because if someone is as fanatical as some of the extremist appear to be, they will not talk no matter what we do (up and until we kill them with torture.)
    Then we just haven't pushed the right buttons. As to killing them it is medically possible today to keep someone alive indefinitely almost regardless fo the type of things done to them. Physical torture aside it is usually much more effective to use psychological methods to break people.
  4. #184  
    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels
    Our soldiers stood trial for things no worse than college kids do at hazing, not comparisons to what they do to our soldiers.
    I am not sure of the relevancy here? Just because someone does something that another group gets away doesnt mean that they didnt break the law when our soldiers committed the acts. At most colleges, hazing is against the school policy/regulation.

    That is like saying "I ran the red light because the other car did."
  5. #185  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo2die4
    I have a question regarding the "high moral ground":

    How can you remain here when the enemy you ar fighting will do anything just to kill a person, any person, with beliefs that are not in line with theirs?

    Does there not come a point where the high moral ground is no longer an option?
    I think the idea is that we will maintain our order and discipline no matter what the enemy does. We will not let them dictate how we will act. Does that mean that we can't change our tactical strategies if we are unsuccessful? Not at all.

    Its much like the conservative idea that no matter where you are in life, you can pull your bootstraps up and make it on your own without any help.

    We should control our own policy and not have it dictated by extremists. Its much like the idea of not negotiating with terrorists. Is it a hard policy to maintain, absolutely. But look what happens when you allow it one time.

    If we stoop to their level, then it seems very easy to see how it will be used against us to better their 'cause'. We dont need to fall into that trap. We need to 'win the hearts and minds'. By using torture...it undercuts our efforts.
  6. #186  
    I think the KNOWLEDGE, in and of itself, that you are going to be tortured and/or killed is the most effective form of psychological torture. Thinking of your spouse, children, parents...

    Obviously this is not a comparable situation to the topic at hand... but the "anticipation" of a vaccination is much worse than the vaccination itself.
  7. #187  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Everyone CAN be broken but not everyone IS broken. The distinction is important because if someone is as fanatical as some of the extremist appear to be, they will not talk no matter what we do (up and until we kill them with torture.)
    See, I disagree, and agree with Woof. You just haven't found the right "pressure points" yet. They may appear tough and convinced of their own spirituality, but as they are merely human, there is something that can be done to "change their minds". Like I said, it may be physical, it may be psychological/emotional, it may involve physically harming a loved one in front of them. That's powerful motivation.

    Seeing as there is this much uproar in the prison camps over the mistreatment of a book (regardless of the title or subject matter, it is still a book, mass produced at a factory), there appears to be a soft spot in those prisoners eyes and hearts for a torn Koran.
    I'm back!
  8. #188  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Then we just haven't pushed the right buttons. As to killing them it is medically possible today to keep someone alive indefinitely almost regardless fo the type of things done to them. Physical torture aside it is usually much more effective to use psychological methods to break people.
    I dont dispute that we can keep someone alive while we torture them or that its more effective to you psychology.

    It might be obvious but this whole torture discussion was played out in the movie "The Siege" with Denzel Washington.

    When Bruce Willis' character was torturing the captive and then ultimately killed him he said something like "He would have talked by now" (I guess evidence to say that he must not have known the intel that they wanted.)

    How do we get to the point that you mentioned Woof where we know the guy knows 'something' and then how do we know the 'right' buttons to push? How sadistic do we have to get (and who does all this torture? It would take an awful lot of rationalization to be able to do that to somebody and then get off work and go play baseball with your son at the playground). How do you disconnect as a person to be able to intentionally inflict that kind of pain and torture based on the idea that we are pretty sure they know something.

    It reminds me of the kind of lawlessness that occurred at My Lai. I am sure that they rationalized what they did because of the tactics of the Viet Cong.

    BTW-I am not trying to take this discussion that far out there, merely bringing up a different point of view for us to think about.
  9. #189  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christinac130
    I think the KNOWLEDGE, in and of itself, that you are going to be tortured and/or killed is the most effective form of psychological torture. Thinking of your spouse, children, parents...

    Obviously this is not a comparable situation to the topic at hand... but the "anticipation" of a vaccination is much worse than the vaccination itself.
    Thats a good point however, (assuming the extremists we are talking about torturing are the same type of extremists that flew the planes in 9/11) how strong can the conviction be to hate as much as they do to fly a plane into a building going hundreds of miles an hour? Think about that type of anticipation (months if not years of planning, boarding the plane, taking over the plane...knowing you are going to fly it straight into a building). You are anticipating that every step of the way and still going through with it. That is extreme. The only person that didnt blink possibly Moussaui. (And I am not trying to dignify what they did...simply giving it a different perspective so that we may better analyze their hate and contempt and dedication.)
  10.    #190  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dee Zaster
    Nudist, dlbrummels and clairegrrl – your personal attacks and tasteless comments about people are tiresome. No wonder people with good intentions and opinions choose to leave this forum. You guys are smart and humorous but you need to grow up already.
    Cya around
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  11. #191  
    How do we know these people aren't geniuses? Mistreating the book spares them the physical torture...
  12. #192  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmill72x
    it may involve physically harming a loved one in front of them. That's powerful motivation.
    No doubt. Fair enough, but now we will take the innocent loved one and torture them to make the extremist talk. If you want to argue the ends justify the means, then thats fine but I cant (and wouldnt) go there.
  13. #193  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christinac130
    How do we know these people aren't geniuses? Mistreating the book spares them the physical torture...
    Thats a good point. That goes to my argument of HOW do we know the RIGHT buttons to push.

    In order to have torture be effective, I would argue that the person has to be acting rationally (rational choice theory). When you torture them, they do a cost benefit analysis and decide I would rather stop the torture by telling them something (which may not be true) then to continue being hurt.

    On the other hand, if you believe that they aren't rational (as some people do) then they never get to the cost benefit analysis and would rather die for the cause (extremist view.)

    When we torture, we have pick and choose what works based on what we believe motivates the other person to conform to what we want. We largely do that based on empirical evidence with the perceptions we have.

    This whole Koran business could just be smoke to mislead us. Again, this goes to my point of KNOWING what motivates them and knowing if they have any info.
  14. #194  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    No doubt. Fair enough, but now we will take the innocent loved one and torture them to make the extremist talk. If you want to argue the ends justify the means, then thats fine but I cant (and wouldnt) go there.
    This goes back to the question that was posed earlier as to whether or not a child's life is worth 300 or 3000 lives.

    Is it to you?

    In that case, do the means justify the end?
    I'm back!
  15. #195  
    I'm sorry, I was referring to the torture of Americans in my previous statement. I think in the case of the extremists, torture is relatively futile. I understand they are still human and some may be weaker than others so, therefore, can be broken. But, these are men brainwashed into thinking their lives mean nothing in relation to their cause. They fight with the belief their deaths are inevitable and worthwhile. If broken, they would have to answer to the higher power which, to them, would be a fate worse than death or torture. How many extremists have given up information as a result of being tortured?
  16. #196  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Then we just haven't pushed the right buttons. ... Physical torture aside it is usually much more effective to use psychological methods to break people.
    How do you know this?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  17. #197  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I think the idea is that we will maintain our order and discipline no matter what the enemy does. We will not let them dictate how we will act. Does that mean that we can't change our tactical strategies if we are unsuccessful? Not at all.

    Its much like the conservative idea that no matter where you are in life, you can pull your bootstraps up and make it on your own without any help.

    We should control our own policy and not have it dictated by extremists. Its much like the idea of not negotiating with terrorists. Is it a hard policy to maintain, absolutely. But look what happens when you allow it one time.

    If we stoop to their level, then it seems very easy to see how it will be used against us to better their 'cause'. We dont need to fall into that trap. We need to 'win the hearts and minds'. By using torture...it undercuts our efforts.
    Well said.......it's a tough question for me as I am in agreement with the guts of your statements but find it difficult to rather idlely sit by winning the hearts and minds while seeing, and expecting to see in the future, many innocent people die in the process. The patience and toll associated with the hearts and minds in this case may, I fear, be too large a cost to bare.....
  18. #198  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christinac130
    I'm sorry, I was referring to the torture of Americans in my previous statement. I think in the case of the extremists, torture is relatively futile. I understand they are still human and some may be weaker than others so, therefore, can be broken. But, these are men brainwashed into thinking their lives mean nothing in relation to their cause. They fight with the belief their deaths are inevitable and worthwhile. If broken, they would have to answer to the higher power which, to them, would be a fate worse than death or torture. How many extremists have given up information as a result of being tortured?
    If this is the case, how does one eliminate or minimize the threat while spending decades changing the overall thought process? It would seem to dictate the death of many, many innocent people will have to be accepted while the re-education process takes place?

    Depressing to think about the currently available options ....
  19. #199  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christinac130
    How many extremists have given up information as a result of being tortured?
    We captured Al Qaeda's #3 man last week. Supposedly that was a direct result of intelligence gathered from the interrogation of captured Al Qaeda operatives. They are not as robotic and single-minded as bin Laden and Zaqwari would like for us to believe.
    I'm back!
  20. #200  
    Hey, I thought this was Pee-Wee Jedi talk??
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
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