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  1. #121  
    Wow, Clu!

    Take it easy my friend, you'll give yourself a stroke!
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  2.    #122  
    Clulup: "Lifestyle choices? If it is that, what causes Americans to chose such unhealth lifestyles, leading to the highest health costs and at the same time low life expectancy?"

    1911sforever: Dunno. But we are free to do so, for now. If we ever nationalize our health care industry, it is a sure bet that a government bureaucracy will mandate lifestyle changes based upon the argument that the "government" is paying for it.

    Clulup: You got the meaning of infant mortality rate wrong: it simply means how many babies in, say, 100'000 babies die. That number is about 50% higher in the US when compared to countries like France, Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland. Lifestyle choices, too?

    1911sforever: I concede that our infant mortality rate is higher. The drug problem we have in the inner city has done much to cause this, as well as our open southern border. And I didn't confuse the two...I merely pointed out that the Swiss are dying faster than they are breeding. Maybe if you guys had more "at bats" your infant death rate would increase?

    Clulup: What do you mean by "our/your" drug companies? Do you think all the things you mentioned are different in other places, that the price of "our" medication does not include R&D? That we do not have healthcare for the indigent? More than you, I am quite sure, since here everybody has health insurance, not only the rich. Guess who pays healthcare for the poor? Granted, we do not have such a bad lawsuit situation, but that is up to the people you vote for to change, no?

    1911sforever: How many drugs has Switzerland developed to combat AIDS? MS? Cancer? The Swiss equivalent of the MRI?

    As far as tort reform, we are working that issue. The lawyer establishment is well entrenched in our government...hell the Democrats ran a trial lawyer that made millions on junk science as their vice presidential candidate last year.

    I do note that you've apparently backed off your errant claim regarding assault rates in the US versus England. The Limeys have surpassed us in that realm. I also noted that you conflated assault with homicide, where we are still number one! Nice trick, but too obvious.
  3.    #123  
    This deserves its own response:

    CLULUP: I am not sure you realize what you just wrote: an armed citizenry serves as the ultimate check and balance in the event the government acts beyond its legitimate interest? That's most likely what Timothy McVeigh thought, too, only that he and his friends didn't use a gun but a bomb in Oklahoma... So your armed citizenry is in charge of keeping the democratic government in check - that's beyond weird. As soon as enough of some armed guys think "the government acts beyond its legitimate interest", you start setting things straight with your guns. Sorry, but in a democracy, that is sick."

    Apparently the idea of a government, even a democratically elected one, acting illegally is beyond your comprehension. Well, here's news. Governments are made among men, who have possessed the same flaws of greed and lust for power for thousands of years. What happens when there is a military coup? Or the government turns against the people and attempts to enslave them? Never happen in a democracy, you say? History argues otherwise.

    We in the US live in very interesting times. The pistol on my hip and the rifle in my truck are far more likely to be used against a criminal or to repel a Jihadist attack at a mall than resist government oppression. But our founders lived in different times. Tell me, do you know what precipiated the battles at Lexington and Concord?

    I noticed that you threw McVeigh into the mix. Do you know what set him off?
  4.    #124  
    And here's the one I really love!

    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    You know, this is really interesting. Whenever somebody isn't able to come up with reasonable arguments against things I wrote, he comes up with the role of Switzerland in WWII. I guess if I was German, you would feel too stupid to come up with that, wouldn't you, or would you start complaining about Nazi Germany? If I was Russian, would you blame me for Communism? If I was American, would you blame me for the Genocide of the Native Americans and importing hunderds of thousands of slaves when just about every other nation in the world had stopped, even fighting a war for the right to hold slaves? Oh, wait, you ARE American, right? So whose side were you on, pro slavery or against it? How about lynching Afro-Americans, and openly racist laws in many states of the US as late as the 1960's and 1970's? Stupid that I bring this up, right, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of the discussion, and YOU didn't have anything to do with it anyway - guess what, neither did I.

    Obviously, you have no idea what I think about the role of Swizerland in WWII, and frankly, I doubt you know much about this role, the background, and the overall situation at the time. You can read a small part about my views in this reply. I am fully aware of the fact that there were many highly problematic aspects and that the official closing of the borders had tragic consequences. But I am also aware of the overall situation, that Switzerland as a nation was determined to keep Hitler out, even if outnumbered ten or more times. Being officially neutral was one means to help keep Nazi Germany out. It is true that many refugees were turned back, but it is also true that thousands were allowed to enter (mostly inofficially). It really is a long story, with good and bad things in a time of war.
    I love the way you deem your arguments "reasonable" and declare victory.

    And when I point out that the standard of living you enjoy today, and put forward with such sanctimony, is based upon your country's role as Hitler's moneychanger you become all unglued. America has her scars and sins, and we own up to them and have done more to make those things right than any other country in history. What have the Swiss done? I mean, really, besides the cheese and the William Tell overture. Good cameras, too. And we can't forget about the watches. But other than those things, and anonymous banking, what great contributions have come from the Swiss?

    Your euphemism of "highly problematic" is really a gut buster! Your countrymen could have fought and tied down dozens of German divisions, but
    that would have been "highly problematic". Hell, even the French fought!
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    ...what great contributions have come from the Swiss?
    Dont forget the swiss army knives
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  6. hsk
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    #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    I noticed that you threw McVeigh into the mix. Do you know what set him off?
    No I don't, although there were certain things reported. Does it justify what he did?
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Apparently the idea of a government, even a democratically elected one, acting illegally is beyond your comprehension. Well, here's news. Governments are made among men, who have possessed the same flaws of greed and lust for power for thousands of years. What happens when there is a military coup? Or the government turns against the people and attempts to enslave them?
    I find it quite sad that you, a former member of the US Armed Forces (if I got it right), consider a military coup in your home country a possibilty. Are you making fun or are you seriously suggesting there is even the remote possibility that your "government turns against the people and attempts to enslave them"? You probably do, because you sugest "armed citizenry" is a necessary precaution against that sort of thing.
    I noticed that you threw McVeigh into the mix. Do you know what set him off?
    He is a strange case: "A co-worker recalls that McVeigh owned numerous firearms and had a survivalist philosophy -- a tendency to stockpile weapons and food in preparation for what he believed to be the imminent breakdown of society... He was promoted to corporal, sergeant, then platoon leader. Fellow soldiers recalled that McVeigh was very interested in military stuff, kept his own personal collection of firearms and constantly cleaned and maintained them. Other soldiers went into town to look for entertainment or companionship but McVeigh stayed on base and cleaned his guns... McVeigh traveled to Waco, Texas during the March-April 1993 standoff between the Branch Davidians and federal agents, and was said to have been angry about what he saw. (Source )

    What do you think his motives were?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    I concede that our infant mortality rate is higher. The drug problem we have in the inner city has done much to cause this, as well as our open southern border.
    Your open southern border causes a higher infant mortality rate? Interesting.
    And I didn't confuse the two...I merely pointed out that the Swiss are dying faster than they are breeding.
    So would the population of the US, without immigrants and the higher number of children they have. BTW, the population of Switzerland is rising, too, for the same reasons.
    1911sforever: How many drugs has Switzerland developed to combat AIDS? MS? Cancer? The Swiss equivalent of the MRI?
    As you undoubtedly know, the basic principle of MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imagery) was invented by the Swiss Richard R. Ernst, who won the Noble Prize for this achievement in 1991: "Richard Robert Ernst (born August 14, 1933) is a Swiss chemist and Nobel Laureate. Ernst was awarded the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1991 for his contributions towards the development of multidimensional, Fourier transform nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy. This technique is very largely used in medicine to get precise images of the human body, and in such context is known as magnetic resonance imagery (MRI)."

    In 2003, Kurt Wüthrich, also Professor at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technonogy, was awarded a Noble Prize in Chemistry for his leadership of ongoing work, begun in the 1970s, on the use of multidimensional nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy, an advanced form of MRI. In the same year, a Brit and an American were awarded the Nobel prize in medicine, for having acutally developed an MRI machine.

    Also your rhethorical questions about medication are interesting, since undoubtedly you know that e.g. the two Swiss pharma companies Novartis and Roche are among most successful worldwide. Just a short notice about AIDS from Roche: "Since 1986, Roche has been at the forefront of groundbreaking research and development of new drugs and technologies for care of patients with HIV. Medications developed by Roche for HIV include Fortovase and Invirase (two formulations of saquinavir), administered in combination with ritonavir, and Viracept (nelfinavir). Viracept, introduced in 1997, has proven efficacy and safety in the treatment of HIV infection, is widely used in early treatment and has a unique cross-resistance profile. Most recently, Roche introduced Fuzeon (enfuvirtide), the world’s first HIV fusion inhibitor and the first innovation in HIV treatment since 1996."

    I will not bore you with list of other drugs developed by Swiss companies. What's the point anyway?
    Last edited by clulup; 05/09/2005 at 05:39 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    Dont forget the swiss army knives
    And SWISSMEMORY

    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  10. #130  
    And of course, the Swiss make my favorite watches!!
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  11. #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    And of course, the Swiss make my favorite watches!!
    Guess what -
    mine, too!

    I don't know about Swiss cameras though, others seem to know more about that than me, and the William Tell overture was written by an Italian (in honor of William Tell, of course!)
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  12. hsk
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    #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    That sounds fabulous! Of course, now that they confiscate Swiss Army knives when you try to board a plane, I never carry mine around anymore, so never have one when I need it.
  13.    #133  
    Chocolate. I left out the chocolate.
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by hsk
    That sounds fabulous! Of course, now that they confiscate Swiss Army knives when you try to board a plane, I never carry mine around anymore, so never have one when I need it.
    Hey, check out the link, there's a "flight" version, of course!
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  15. #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Hey, check out the link, there's a "flight" version, of course!
    Yep. Clu is right. You can detach the USB drive.

    And some silly Omega Watch trivia. X-Files fans will note that Fox Mulder's watch is an Omega.

    Now that we're wildly off topic...
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Now that we're wildly off topic...
    Just killing time until 1911sforever tells us what he thinks set off Timothy McVeigh, whether it was justified to some extent, whether armed citizenries are indeed needed in the US to fight a potential "military coup", or "to ensure the ultimate check and balance in the event the government acts beyond its legitimate interest".

    You know, personal, present day questions, not history nobody here was personally involved in.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  17.    #137  
    I think McVeigh had legitimate grievances. Government agents acted well beyond the scope of the law at both Ruby Ridge and Waco, and were not punished for it. Quite the contrary...they were promoted after Ruby Ridge. Years after the fact we learn that the FBI shredded documents from that affair, and then lied about their activities at Waco. The ATF timed their raid at Waco with budget hearings, referring to it as "ZBO", or "Zee Big One".

    That said, I don't think he was justified in acting in that manner at that time. All avenues of redress had not been exercised. Law enforcement officials have lost their careers now, even spent time in jail for what they did. There has been visibility, and accountability. I think that would have happened without bombing the Murrah building, but we'll never know.

    Do I think that one day the American military would stage a coup? It is possible. We're a young country. The same with the civilian government. You might recall reading about our Civil War in the 1860's...the country was very divided then. Take a look at the electoral maps from the last few cycles. We are a divided nation again. Do you really think that human nature has changed?

    Would you fight for your freedom? Can you even imagine any circumstances that would cause that? What if in 50 years the wave of immigration Switzerland is experiencing results in the election of an Islamic government, who then sets upon a pogrom? Would you let "democracy" take its course as your friends are carted away?

    Regarding my point on how illegal immigration impacts our infant mortality rate, are you being obtuse? Thousands of women with high risk pregnacies cross our border every year seeking treatment. And they receive it, as is our law. Still, there is only so much that can be done in many of those cases.
  18. #138  
    1911: you have made some good points. I also agree that the government crossed the line with Randy Weaver and Waco. The problem is that even at the point of them 'carting away my friends' I don't know if that justifies armed resistance (the reason is because we don't know why they may be legitimately dragging someone away - i.e. search warrant/arrest warrant). [On a side note-how supportive are you of the Patriot Act? ]

    The only time I could justify armed resistance is if in was in protection of my life or my family's lives. If we allow it for less than that (even if the government was taking my property) then we cross the line like McVeigh. We still have recourse through democratic channels when property is taken. When those democratic channels are closed (or when we don't have the opportunity and lives are at stake-that is when it would be justified in my mind). My .02
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    I think McVeigh had legitimate grievances. Government agents acted well beyond the scope of the law at both Ruby Ridge and Waco, and were not punished for it. ...

    That said, I don't think he was justified in acting in that manner at that time.
    Are you really aware of what you are writing? "He was not justified in acting IN THAT MANNER AT THAT TIME?" 167 men, women and children died, killed by Timothy McVeigh and his friends. They had nothing to do with it!

    You, dear 1911sforever, seem to think like a terrorist: maybe McVeigh was wrong at that time, a bit trigger-happy maybe, but later, if indeed those agents who acted wrongly in Waco (according to your opinion) were not punished, it could have been ok? Sorry, but this is sick...
    You might recall reading about our Civil War in the 1860's...the country was very divided then.
    Interesting thought. What do you think, which side would you have been fighting on?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  20.    #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Are you really aware of what you are writing? "He was not justified in acting IN THAT MANNER AT THAT TIME?" 167 men, women and children died, killed by Timothy McVeigh and his friends. They had nothing to do with it!

    You, dear 1911sforever, seem to think like a terrorist: maybe McVeigh was wrong at that time, a bit trigger-happy maybe, but later, if indeed those agents who acted wrongly in Waco (according to your opinion) were not punished, it could have been ok? Sorry, but this is sick...
    Interesting thought. What do you think, which side would you have been fighting on?
    Rather than call me a terrorist by innuendo, why won't you answer my question? I've made every attempt to answer yours, even publicly taking very controversial stands. Yet you continue to bob and weave...unable or unwilling to say what you would do when confronted with a government, even a democratically elected one, that is killing people outside the bounds of the law and getting away with it.

    Somehow that seems fitting, as history shows us what the Swiss will do when confronted with tyranny. Make a deal, enable mass murder and global domination, and turn a hefty profit while doing it. To do otherwise would be "highly problematic".

    I think we're through here.
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