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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    It is not reasonable for the government to mandate that a pharmacy carry a given pill.
    Are you saying that a pharmacy does not have some federal regulations to carry certain drugs? I was thinking along the lines of flu vaccinations (remember the shortage last year).

    I would think that the FDA could successfully pass legistlation requiring certain drugs. Maybe not.
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I just said the pharmacist shouldnt be able to discriminate on who he sells to...not what he stocks on his shelves.
    I responded so late, the topic may have moved away from what daThomas had posted:
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    ...What rights need protectin? The christian pharmacist who refuses to fill a prescription for the morning after pill?...
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Are you saying that a pharmacy does not have some federal regulations to carry certain drugs? I was thinking along the lines of flu vaccinations (remember the shortage last year).

    I would think that the FDA could successfully pass legistlation requiring certain drugs. Maybe not.
    I would hope not. Unless we're talking about a federally funded pharmacy, there is no appropriate cause for a mandate that a particular product be stocked.

    To mandate such would be an act that speaks to the original topic of this thread.
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I am not trying to say that the government is trying to 'make' everyone become a christian. (Sorry if there is confusion.)
    I know you aren't, but DA wants people to believe they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Take gay marriage as an example. Under the current administration, if you are not gay, you can get married (if you are gay, then you cant get married.) Isnt that forcing a particular doctrine onto another group by limiting and controlling benefits to get a desired result (I know-not the same but maybe you see my point.) And look at the Administration's rationale-'marriage is holy union between a man and woman.'
    Again our marriage traditions were founded by christians.
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    The same thing is being done with money to planned parenthood organizations. If they support abortion, then the funding gets cut. If they don't, the money keeps coming. In an eerie way, the government is forcing Christian doctrine on others.

    My point is that the government shouldnt create policies citing Christian concepts. It alienates everyone who is not a christian or does not follow those principles (hence the division in each political party when it comes to its moderates.)
    There are a lot of cultures that believe in the family unit. Americans (let alone christians) do not have a monopoly on this concept.
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    And I believe this runs counter to the constitution. If it was to be expected and accepted by the founding fathers, why did they put the establishment clause in? My answer is because they did not want the country run on a Christian code primarily because the problem is who is going to interpret what that christian code will be?
    Because they wanted people to have the freedom to choose what if any religion they want to pratice. It is working! Again I say show me one instance of the government forcing someone to believe or exhibit beliefs of the Christian faith.
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    In a weird way, it might be better to create these policies under the guise of "Its for the good of the country". At least that way, it wouldnt appear so overtly religious
    I think Sopharium could give us a biblical quote as to why we should not "mask" our belief in God
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    When I was in Elementary, my school had moring prayer. I chose to not pray and I was NEVER punished for that choice.
    I think thats great. My concern is did you feel singled out? Did other students look at you differently? Did the teacher treat you differently? (All of these things have been alleged in separation of church/state lawsuits when they go through the court system).

    Could this be avoided? Absolutely. Some schools have done things like morning prayer at the flagpole (obviously organized by students/parents and not the school or administration).

    Im all for praising God . I just dont want people to be treated differently if they choose not to participate. <---Thats what I think the founding fathers wanted when they drafted the constitution.
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I think thats great. My concern is did you feel singled out? Did other students look at you differently? Did the teacher treat you differently?
    Does it matter?
    Afterall...
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Plus, one of the great things about being a Christian (or religious in general) -I will add ANY belief - is that you are secure in your own beliefs and that you don't push it on other people.
    ...Or worry yourself about what they think
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    Because they wanted people to have the freedom to choose what if any religion they want to pratice. It is working! Again I say show me one instance of the government forcing someone to believe or exhibit beliefs of the Christian faith.
    So if we base rights on Christian code (or deny them based on Christian beliefs) isnt that forcing people to choose the 'christian' side or go without.
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Could this be avoided? Absolutely. Some schools have done things like morning prayer at the flagpole (obviously organized by students/parents and not the school or administration).
    I wonder if DA thinks that simply allowing this madness is somehow an endorsment of it.
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    So if we base rights on Christian code (or deny them based on Christian beliefs) isnt that forcing people to choose the 'christian' side or go without.
    Which rights are you talking about?

    Abortion? I think we all agree that Killing a human being is against the "law" christian based or otherwise
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    Does it matter?
    Yeah it matters. Do you want people to feel discriminated against if they dont pray in school? Is that what you are saying?
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Yeah it matters. Do you want people to feel discriminated against if they dont pray in school? Is that what you are saying?
    You read the rest of the post. I don't want them to feel discriminated against, but if there belief is strong they probably won't
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    Which rights are you talking about?

    Abortion? I think we all agree that Killing a human being is against the "law" christian based or otherwise
    Look at the way you frame the issue...

    First off, you have to define a human being. Is a fetus a human being? If you say yes and lay the authority on the bible (or other christian belief), then are you putting the bible above all the other people's beliefs that life does not start until you start coming out of the womb?

    Second, we kill human beings all the time (i.e. death penalty) unless you define killing differently.

    Lastly, what about the individual rights of autonomy that people should have over their own bodies. Should the government decide what my wife should do with her body? Should I be able to decide that she does carry it to term if she chooses not too?

    Do you feel the same way if your sister was raped by a sick uncle? Still expect her to carry it to term? <--Its not that black and white for me.
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    You read the rest of the post. I don't want them to feel discriminated against, but if there belief is strong they probably won't
    Ok, agreed. BUT what if it is not (and whose beliefs as a child are solid as a rock?)

    Sometimes I don't even know if mine are. I constantly question what I believe...
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    I think Sopharium could give us a biblical quote as to why we should not "mask" our belief in God
    LOL
    We certainly need not "mask" our belief in God. However, we also need not quote scripture as a basis for legislative action.

    But sense you asked, here is a scripture quote from Jesus/Y'shua, the man for whom christianity is named. He said, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight."

    If you'll note, that same Jesus did not spend any time trying to convince the Romans citizens or authroities to adopt his philosophy. He spent His time investing in his followers and living out his beliefs. That approach is still influencing the entire world some 2000+ years later.

    My point? The United States of America is not a christian nation. There is no christian nation that I'm aware of. There are christians who are citizens of this nation. But, this is not a christian nation. As such, the only just cause we have to influence the laws of this nation is as citizens of the nation who pursue what we believe is beneficial for this nation -- not as christians who want to establish a christian state.
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Look at the way you frame the issue...

    First off, you have to define a human being. Is a fetus a human being? If you say yes and lay the authority on the bible (or other christian belief), then are you putting the bible above all the other people's beliefs that life does not start until you start coming out of the womb?

    Second, we kill human beings all the time (i.e. death penalty) unless you define killing differently.

    Lastly, what about the individual rights of autonomy that people should have over their own bodies. Should the government decide what my wife should do with her body? Should I be able to decide that she does carry it to term if she chooses not too?

    Do you feel the same way if your sister was raped by a sick uncle? Still expect her to carry it to term? <--Its not that black and white for me.
    First off my wife is currently pregnant and we just had one of the 3D ultrasounds done. All religious beliefs aside even an ***** can tell there is a human in there. They can argue whatever nonsense they want. The fact is the fetus eats, breaths, sleeps, reacts, etc..

    AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK $any$ $laws$ $banning$ $abortion$ $are$ $aimed$ $at$ $frivilous$ $waste$ $of$ $life$. $They$ $have$ $exclusions$ $for$ $the$ $rape$ $victom$ $scenarios$ &$lt$;---- $its$ $not$ $that$ $black$ $and$ $white$ $for$ $the$ $Gov$. $either$!
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    I wonder if DA thinks that simply allowing this madness is somehow an endorsment of it.
    I dont consider this madness...I think it is healthy debate. We flush out issues and raise questions. I learn more about the other point of view this way
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    LOL
    We certainly need not "mask" our belief in God. However, we also need not quote scripture as a basis for legislative action.

    But sense you asked, here is a scripture quote from Jesus/Y'shua, the man for whom christianity is named. He said, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight."

    If you'll note, that same Jesus did not spend any time trying to convince the Romans citizens or authroities to adopt his philosophy. He spent His time investing in his followers and living out his beliefs. That approach is still influencing the entire world some 2000+ years later.

    My point? The United States of America is not a christian nation. There is no christian nation that I'm aware of. There are christians who are citizens of this nation. But, this is not a christian nation. As such, the only just cause we have to influence the laws of this nation is as citizens of the nation who pursue what we believe is beneficial for this nation -- not as christians who want to establish a christian state.
    Fair enough. I still have yet to see the government trying to "establish" a christian state. The only thing I see is quite the contrary. These debates are always started by someone trying to remove the presence of christianity in efforts to create a NON-christian state.
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I dont consider this madness
    I was being sarcastic about the chaotic school children praying at the flag pole
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    First off my wife is currently pregnant and we just had one of the 3D ultrasounds done. All religious beliefs aside even an ***** can tell there is a human in there. They can argue whatever nonsense they want. The fact is the fetus eats, breaths, sleeps, reacts, etc..

    AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK $any$ $laws$ $banning$ $abortion$ $are$ $aimed$ $at$ $frivilous$ $waste$ $of$ $life$. $They$ $have$ $exclusions$ $for$ $the$ $rape$ $victom$ $scenarios$ &$lt$;---- $its$ $not$ $that$ $black$ $and$ $white$ $for$ $the$ $Gov$. $either$!
    First off...really...congratulations! I have two kids.

    On a different note...It makes it extremely important how you define life. All the policy implications hinge on it. For example, how far along is she. 6 weeks, 8 weeks? At what stage would you consider the baby to not be a baby? I am sure that shopharim could tell us the different stages.

    You have to agree though that its not easy and if you look at it just from a Christian perspective, most believe that life begins at conception. This does not jive with the laws that we have.
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    I was being sarcastic about the chaotic school children praying at the flag pole
    LOL-I thought when you said Madness, that you meant this ongoing back and forth. I never would of thought you were talking about the kids at the flagpole

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