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  1.    #1  
    I wanted to start a thread about the Mexican border problem. I saw another related thread that degenerated into ACLU debate which I did not care to prolong.

    The main beef I have with the porous Mexican border is that we we spend all this money on Homeland Security and securing airports. Yet lots of people have illegally crossed the Mexican border. Many people equate the problem with lax patrol of the border but I do not see that as the problem. The problem in my mind is that of deterrent. There is no real deterrent to crossing the border. If you make it across and get caught, the only penalty you face is that you just get deported back to Mexico where you can try it again. In fact, I saw a report on the news that as many as 1/3 of prisoners in one county (I believe they said LA) are illegal aliens that are waiting to be deported back across the border. So they are being caught, it's just that they keep trying to come back over.

    So what is a proper deterrent? To answer that question we have to look at the issue from the point of view of the person we are trying to stop: the Mexican illegal alien. If I am Mexican living in a country that has an economy so weak that it cannot provide a good life for either myself or my family, I am going to try to go somewhere that has more opportunities. Such a place is America but I don't want to go through legal immigration because it takes too long. So I'm going to try to illegally cross the border because the worse they can do to me is just put me back in this **** poor country where I'm already stuck. So what do I have to lose? Absolutely nothing.

    Now one could argue at this point that the solution would be to improve Mexico's economy so that Mexicans want to stay in theircountry and not cross the border. Or possibly just let them all into the US and give them jobs. A person making either of these suggestions would be called a liberal. I am not adverse to these suggestions nor I am ridiculing liberals at the moment. I have observed that most liberals are very well meaning and suggest ideas that would be the best solution if we lived in an ideal world where everything is possible and all endings are happy. If it's any comfort, I really wish we did. Unfortunately we don't. And that's what makes some people Angry Liberals because all their proposed solutions are ideal but at the same time impractical and ultimately useless. So while I agree that this is the optimal solution, at the same time I have to label it as impractical and therefore useless. The US is having it's own economic difficulties and we can't triple the deficit solving Mexico's problems.

    Which leads us back to deterrent. Many people are going to hate this idea - and I'm really not too comfortable with it myself - but the only way I see to solve this problem is to create a lethal deterrent. I'm not saying kill everyone who tries to cross. I'm talking about a minefield. You put a fence up that says, "Warning do not cross. Minefield. Cross at your own risk." in both English and Spanish. And if someone tries to cross - well that's a choice they have to weigh. You don't even have to put that many around the border. The mere threat will be enough to make anyone think twice. When you think you have nothing to lose living in Mexico, knowing that you might get blown up trying to illegally cross the border will change your mind pretty quickly.

    Other countries do the same. Just look at North and South Korea - no illegal immigration problem there. Other countries call masses of persons illegally crossing a border an "invasion" and meet it with more lethal means than a minefield. The threat of terrorists crossing our border and attacking us scares me and we have to do something. I don't like the thought of blowing people up, and I hate mines, but we do have a right to defend our border. What I have is a practical solution to a problem which is far, far from ideal but will definitely take care of it in the real world. That's what makes me a Republican. Unfortunately it involves people dying which might make me an Evil Republican - I don't know. But I am also reasonable person. If someone has a less harsh idea for clamping down the border, please throw it out there. But don't just say, "You can't just blow people up! That's wrong!"
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  2. #2  
    “The U.S.’ Message to Osama is Clear, We’re Going to Get You, Unless You’re Willing to Work a Job No American is Willing to Take”

    "WASHINGTON, D.C. – Congressman Tom Tancredo (CO-06) was surprised to learn today that the U.S. has apparently decided to move its shock and awe tactics from the Middle East to Middle America, when officials found illegal aliens with false social security cards and valid driver’s licenses working at an airport in North Carolina and a nuclear power plant in Florida.

    “This simply goes beyond the realm of reason,” said Tancredo, Chairman of the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus. “This Administration had better realize real soon that his personal feelings about his ‘willing workers with willing employers’ policy has the potential to be fatally flawed.”

    In North Carolina this weekend, immigration officials arrested 27 illegal aliens working on airplanes at Piedmont Triad International Airport. The illegals all had state issued driver’s licenses. TIMCO, the company that hired the illegals to do the work, said they were hired “because they are cheap.” In Florida, illegals using false Social Security cards were contracted as painters to work on a power plant that had a nuclear reactor."
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  3. #3  
    Although I think that your solution is viable in some ways (costs, maintenance, reliability) it is somewhat barbaric. The other issue is that what is the percentage that are walking across on barren parts of Tx, NM, and Az? Would this solution just increase the levels of trafficking on the streets and waterways? My .02
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  4. #4  
    As an Arizonan I can tell you see a lot more about these border issues in local news. One of the huge costs of illegal immigration, is the drain on tax dollars caused by having to provide the basics like healthcare and education. Our Govenor is currently suing the Feds to recoup some of these costs. Try to get treatment at an Emergency room in Phoenix or Tucson, the wait is similiar to what the Canadians face in their healthcare system (I've lived up there also). By the time you see the Doctor, you may have healed yourself.

    I'm all for the militarization of the border and more physical barriers, maybe not mines but certainly patrols that provide a lethal deterrant. For that I would gladly pay $ 2 a head for my lettuce and an extra $10 for someone higher paid to clean my hotel room.
  5. #5  
    How about we just annex Mexico into the Union? (I'm only half kidding!)
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by dansamy
    How about we just annex Mexico into the Union? ...
    First you give illegal aliens drivers licenses, now you want them to become union members?
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  7.    #7  
    The tax costs that you mention from this problem are also a concern. That's why I favor mines over military patrols. Mines are a one time investment whereas the costs of patrols go on forever.

    Someone told me that the Mexican govt actually gives out pamphlets on how to cross the border. I don't know how true that is though.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  8. #8  
    Why democrats love Mexico

    Well behaved women rarely make history
  9. #9  
    I am not sure why we single out the immigrant mexicans for punishment, they are generally very hardworking solid citizens who just want to make a buck and they would not come here if there was not work available. We are the stupid ones for not recouping income tax from them. We should make it easier to identify and tax immigrant workers and then lets spend our time and resources punishing the employers who continue to hire them illegally.
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I am not sure why we single out the immigrant mexicans for punishment, they are generally very hardworking solid citizens who just want to make a buck and they would not come here if there was not work available. Lets spend our efforts at recouping some income tax from them. We should make it easier to identify and tax immigrant workers and then lets spend our time and resources punishing the employers who continue to hire them illegally.
    I think we need to watch our borders - north and south. It's not a "Mexican" issue to me. It's a security issue. Come down to LA Harbor sometime and watch all those container ships come in, uninspected.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

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  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I am not sure why we single out the immigrant mexicans for punishment, they are generally very hardworking solid citizens who just want to make a buck and they would not come here if there was not work available. We are the stupid ones for not recouping income tax from them. We should make it easier to identify and tax immigrant workers and then lets spend our time and resources punishing the employers who continue to hire them illegally.
    Your points are well taken however, the real problem is simply that we can't let everyone who wants into the U.S. to be allowed in. Most would be law-abiding, hard working individuals. There are however people who would do the U.S. harm, fugitives from other countries and such. At some point, there would be a saturation point and we have to be aware of it. What is that point? I don't know-but we have to be thinking about it. There are costs to overpopulation...natural resources, housing, pollution, etc. I don't know what the solution is.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    I think we need to watch our borders - north and south. It's not a "Mexican" issue to me. It's a security issue. Come down to LA Harbor sometime and watch all those container ships come in, uninspected.
    I agree with you there too, but I think Bob-C's original comment was directed at the problem of illegal immigration, not terrorism, I could be wrong.

    But if someone were proposing mining the mexican border to keep out terrorists, they would be quite foolish because then they would just enter from canada or the coasts. Then after we mine up and down each coast and the canadian border, they would find another way, like infiltrating legal container ships etc.

    Our most effective method to stop terror is to destroy the recruitment of moderate arabs into the radical camp. I think that is where we are losing the battle right now, with our current foreign policy.

    Also we need desperately to improve our intelligence. It is obvious it sucks so bad right now and has even for the three and a half years since 911.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I agree with you there too, but I think Bob-C's original comment was directed at the problem of illegal immigration, not terrorism, I could be wrong.
    No, I think you're right. I'm just trying to get at the big picture. Someone coming in from Mexico to pick strawberries is not the greatest threat to our country.
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    But if someone were proposing mining the mexican border to keep out terrorists, they would be quite foolish because then they would just enter from canada or the coasts. Then after we mine up and down each coast and the canadian border, they would find another way, like infiltrating legal container ships etc.
    Very true.
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Our most effective method to stop terror is to destroy the recruitment of moderate arabs into the radical camp. I think that is where we are losing the battle right now, with our current foreign policy.

    Also we need desperately to improve our intelligence. It sucks so bad right now and has even for the three and a half years since 911.
    Agree with the method. I don't know that I'd agree we're losing the battle. We've certainly hurt them. Since 9/11, we haven't suffered any attacks here or abroad. (I won't count Iraq, since it is a war zone.)

    Our Intelligence community unfortunately will probably take time to rebuild. I don't think it can recover overnight.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    Your points are well taken however, the real problem is simply that we can't let everyone who wants into the U.S. to be allowed in. Most would be law-abiding, hard working individuals. There are however people who would do the U.S. harm, fugitives from other countries and such. At some point, there would be a saturation point and we have to be aware of it. What is that point? I don't know-but we have to be thinking about it. There are costs to overpopulation...natural resources, housing, pollution, etc. I don't know what the solution is.
    I am not turning a blind eye to your argument about overpopulation, and I am not advocating granting citizenship to every yahoo that wants it. But allowing someone to temporarily come in earn a few bucks pay some taxes as an immigrant worker, making it easier to do this and keeping better tabs on who is doing this, it does not seem like the end of the world to me.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I am not turning a blind eye to your argument about overpopulation, and I am not advocating granting citizenship to every yahoo that wants it. But allowing someone to temporarily come in earn a few bucks pay some taxes as an immigrant worker, making it easier to do this and keeping better tabs on who is doing this, it does not seem like the end of the world to me.
    You are correct however, the issue then turns to whom do we let come in? How do we select that person without acting discriminatory? You mention 'temporarily'. Does that imply that after a certain time they have to leave. Thats brings up the issue of tracking people (again another problem).

    Your right, its not the end of the world, we just need to have a process for people who want to do it legally and reward those people for utilizing the legal way (versus crossing illegally). It was mentioned before in the other post...until we make it more of a punishment if you are caught then people will do a cost/benefit analysis and will choose to roll the dice and take their chances. (IMHO).
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I am not sure why we single out the immigrant mexicans for punishment, they are generally very hardworking solid citizens who just want to make a buck and they would not come here if there was not work available. We are the stupid ones for not recouping income tax from them. We should make it easier to identify and tax immigrant workers and then lets spend our time and resources punishing the employers who continue to hire them illegally.
    Your point is exactly what is wrong, rewarding criminal behavior is very wrong.
    The costs greatly excede the benefit.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I am not sure why we single out the immigrant mexicans for punishment, they are generally very hardworking solid citizens who just want to make a buck and they would not come here if there was not work available. We are the stupid ones for not recouping income tax from them. We should make it easier to identify and tax immigrant workers and then lets spend our time and resources punishing the employers who continue to hire them illegally.
    "they would not come here if there was not work available."
    That OR Mexico is so bad economically that the only other option is the U.S.

    "We are the stupid ones for not recouping income tax from them."
    Because most illegal aliens who do make it across make very little income, we would actually be paying them more money (EIC credit, etc.) than what they would put into the tax system.

    "We should make it easier to identify and tax immigrant workers"
    Taxing immigrant workers who don't make enough to live on anyway seems to be exploiting them.

    "lets spend our time and resources punishing the employers who continue to hire them illegally."
    I agree with this however look at why employers will use immigrant workers? (Lots of reasons I suppose, jobs transferring overseas, taxes, health care costs, ... list goes on and on.)
  18. #18  
    The shareholders of companies benefit in hiring no benefit temp workers, the US is just starting to feel the impact this cheap labor brings.
  19. #19  
    brummels did you know that the employers who hire illegal immigrants are showing criminal behavior too and if we start fining them for hiring illegally that is also a source of revenue too is it not? As far as cost benefit, getting some income tax is better than the big zero we are getting now. It is ironic that I am defending our President's position against all of you on this.
  20. #20  
    Hey, you don't even know my position!
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
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