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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    Which leads us back to deterrent. Many people are going to hate this idea - and I'm really not too comfortable with it myself - but the only way I see to solve this problem is to create a lethal deterrent. I'm not saying kill everyone who tries to cross. I'm talking about a minefield.

    Other countries do the same. Just look at North and South Korea - no illegal immigration problem there.
    That has to be the dumbest comment I've ever seen on this forum! I usually try to be a little PC but this comment doesn't deserve anything else. You just compared us to North and South Korea with a DM zone?! Oooh...how about setting up a wall like the Germans did and have armed guards that shoot people?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    What I have is a practical solution to a problem which is far, far from ideal but will definitely take care of it in the real world. That's what makes me a Republican.
    Don't equate this idea anywhere with being a Republican...all you're gonna do is make us look bad (yeah, some folks think we look bad already).

    I do have a problem with given illegal aliens drivers license...but killing someone that is coming across the border because he wants to improve his qaulity of life? Dumb!
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    brummels did you know that the employers who hire illegal immigrants are showing criminal behavior too and if we start fining them for hiring illegally that is also a source of revenue too is it not? As far as cost benefit, getting some income tax is better than the big zero we are getting now. It is ironic that I am defending our President's position against all of you on this.


    I have no idea where you live, but you are clueless.

    I know many companies use temp agencies, and these agencies specialize in hiring illegals, since they do no verification of employment or citizenship, they just accept a false SSI card, the companies are skirting illegal hiring and increase their bottom line.
    They need to be sent packing. The damage they do to SSI, welfare, ours schools, and cities, and then sending money home, is hundreds of times worse than the few dollars we get from themin taxes.

    Since you are clueless to the situation, maybe you will someday live next to a house that is being paid for by 5 families living there with kids, seeing them pay only the tax burden of 1 family, while reaping all the benefits of a taxpayer, while the law abiding citizens are loosing there jobs to cheap labor and pay their share and for the other four families living in that house.

    Not to mention what they do to health care costs, insurance rates, How many people do you know that where killed or injured by illegals driving ? People who trade plates from car to car, if the police can catch them, who fine who do you sue? If they go to court, you"ll never see them again.
    Who will they be that week, if their here at all ?
    Last edited by dlbrummels; 04/08/2005 at 09:53 AM.
  3. #23  
    Landmines...on the US Border? That is....not a good idea at best, and very dangerous at worst..

    First, obstacles are worthless unless they are under observation. The Great Wall of China is a prime example. They built the wall, but didn't have the manpower to patrol it...the Mongols were able to scale or breach the thing at will. Maginot line? Same thing. People will find a way past them, or through them, just like through the Berlin Wall.

    Second, mines cost $$$. You have to maintain and replace them...and they move. Yes, that's right...they move. Over a period of time as the ground gets wet, or freezes, the things can move a couple of feet. It makes going out to replace/maintain them very interesting work. We have Marines get injured at Guantanamo every so often doing this. Also, what is to stop someone from going into that minefield and recovering the explosives from the mines? Where do you think that stuff would end up? They don't do it? The Viet Cong did a FINE job of using our own ordnance against us.

    Third, they don't address the problem. These people need opportunity. The notoriously corrupt Mexican government has done precious little to provide upward mobility for its people. Vincente Fox was elected with high hopes, and has proven himself to be more of the same. The Mexican power elite is delighted with the status quo...I forget how much of Mexico's GDP comes via Western Union telegrams from the US, but it is substantial. We are employing, housing, feeding, and providing medical treatment for an large portion of their population, AND paying them to boot!

    I've got to head off to a meeting...I'll edit after I return. DAMN these employers and their demands!
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by dlbrummels


    I have no idea where you live, but you are clueless.
    I was born and raised in southern california and I guess if you can't make a decent argument beside your train of thought imagery to make us believe there's some army of mexicans out there running us down and trading license plates, I guess that you would just have to resort to using insults. Thats OK, I won't take it personally.

    Anyway, when you say I am clueless, just remember that I'm simply agreeing with the position of our president - who has a bit of executive experience with the mexican border problem. So I guess you are saying that President Bush is clueless too?

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0040107-3.html
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 04/08/2005 at 11:01 AM.
  5. #25  
    Never agreeded with W, he and his buddies profit from the low wages and no benefits.

    The law abiding citizens of this country are being screwed , politicians, both Dem and Rep are lining their pockets at our and our childrens expense.
  6. #26  
    Well, I don't agree with W either on most things, as you know, and I sympathize with your disdain of politicians lining their pockets, on both sides of the aisle.

    Here is an article which I think gives a fair overview of the current developments in this area, for those who are interested:

    http://www.newsbatch.com/immigration.htm
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 04/08/2005 at 02:06 PM.
  7.    #27  
    Missed a lot from my own post but here is quick round of replies.

    - My original post was talking about terrorism being the main motivator for sealing up the Mexican border. But the economic issues of saturation of immigration also underly it.

    - There was a comment by cellmatrix about having to lay mines on the Canadian border as well following my logic. Well my logic doesn't go that way because we don't have a problem on the Canadian border because persons from Canada do not try to illegally cross into the US unless they have criminal records and are trying to escape Canada. Because of this Canada also has better border enforcement and penalties for persons illegally crossing the border. If a Canadian is deported for illegally crossing the American border, Canadian law will make sure they are put away and don't have a second chance. Not like in Mexico where they just get to try again next week. In other words, there are stronger deterrents.

    I have to quote some of these other posts to do them justice...




    - Someone said something about creating a system of legal immigration that rewards people for using it instead of illegally crossing. -Uhm, we do have that - it is called legal naturalization and my friend has been going through it for a number of years.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    That has to be the dumbest comment I've ever seen on this forum! I usually try to be a little PC but this comment doesn't deserve anything else. You just compared us to North and South Korea with a DM zone?! Oooh...how about setting up a wall like the Germans did and have armed guards that shoot people?
    Actually it was the Soviets who put up the Berlin Wall and shot at people. The Germans didn't have much choice about it. And in their case they put it up to keep people in - not out - because they had a murderous, totalitarian government. Which is quite a different situation from putting up a sign that says, "Hey *****! This is your country's border. There are land mines on the other side of this big tall fence with barb wire all over it. Whatever you do, do NOT attempt to breach it because you could get killed or seriously injured. For your own safety turnaround and go home." I think this is much more than just a little bit different than putting up a wall and shooting at people trying to escape your own country. And my comment was dumb?

    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    I do have a problem with given illegal aliens drivers license...but killing someone that is coming across the border because he wants to improve his qaulity of life? Dumb!
    Again, if you put warnings up everywhere that says do not cross this border because you might step on a mine and die, and then the dang ***** goes ahead and does it anyway, you can't really say we killed anyone.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  9.    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Landmines...on the US Border? That is....not a good idea at best, and very dangerous at worst..

    First, obstacles are worthless unless they are under observation. The Great Wall of China is a prime example. They built the wall, but didn't have the manpower to patrol it...the Mongols were able to scale or breach the thing at will. Maginot line? Same thing. People will find a way past them, or through them, just like through the Berlin Wall.
    I don't know much about the Great Wall but the Maginot line was more a failure in implementation than theory. The French elected to not extend in across the Ardennes forest and deeply cut the budget the project thining the Ardennes was impenatrable. Had they the same fortifications along that area who knows what would've happened. At any rate it was just poor design in the line's coverage. As for the Berlin Wall, it was actually a VERY EFFECTIVE deterrent. There were far more persons who failed to cross it then those measly few who did. I'd take those numbers over what we have today in the Mexican border - without all the shooting of course. A very bad example for support of your argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Second, mines cost $$$. You have to maintain and replace them...and they move. Yes, that's right...they move. Over a period of time as the ground gets wet, or freezes, the things can move a couple of feet. It makes going out to replace/maintain them very interesting work. We have Marines get injured at Guantanamo every so often doing this. Also, what is to stop someone from going into that minefield and recovering the explosives from the mines? Where do you think that stuff would end up? They don't do it? The Viet Cong did a FINE job of using our own ordnance against us.
    Sure mines cost money. But it couldn't cost more than all the money spent on detaining and deporting all those Mexicans who get across the border every year. And I hardly think Mexican immigrants are going to attempt to recover land mines to use them on... who would it be you are thinking that the Mexican illegal immigrants would want to use them on?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Third, they don't address the problem. These people need opportunity. The notoriously corrupt Mexican government has done precious little to provide upward mobility for its people. Vincente Fox was elected with high hopes, and has proven himself to be more of the same. The Mexican power elite is delighted with the status quo...I forget how much of Mexico's GDP comes via Western Union telegrams from the US, but it is substantial. We are employing, housing, feeding, and providing medical treatment for an large portion of their population, AND paying them to boot!

    I've got to head off to a meeting...I'll edit after I return. DAMN these employers and their demands!
    As I said in my original post, it is not the US problem to address the economic and political problems in Mexico. We have our own economic problems and can't afford to drop any more $$$ into that country. But we do have a right to regulate who comes into our country.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  10.    #30  
    One last point - did somebody say, "Tax the immigrants?" To tax them you would have to identify and track them, with something like say a Social Security number. That in effect is just like saying lets make them all citizens. That's an ideally perfect solution which makes it absolutely useless in the real world.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  11.    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    I was born and raised in southern california and I guess if you can't make a decent argument beside your train of thought imagery to make us believe there's some army of mexicans out there running us down and trading license plates, I guess that you would just have to resort to using insults. Thats OK, I won't take it personally.

    Anyway, when you say I am clueless, just remember that I'm simply agreeing with the position of our president - who has a bit of executive experience with the mexican border problem. So I guess you are saying that President Bush is clueless too?

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0040107-3.html
    Pretty funny to be on opposite sides but I have no problem saying it, on this particular issue President Bush is absolutely clueless. I saw that CA Governor Schwarzenegger supports this too and I have no doubt that this is all somehow linked to the Republicans wanting to retain control of this important state. Our political system makes me sick at times like this.

    So take that you GOP/Bush lover cellmatrix. You were probably a part of the last two election conspiracie!!
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    So take that you GOP/Bush lover cellmatrix. You were probably a part of the last two election conspiracie!!
    Where have you been Bob? I thought the INS had finally deported you!
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 04/11/2005 at 06:43 PM.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    Actually it was the Soviets who put up the Berlin Wall and shot at people. The Germans didn't have much choice about it. And in their case they put it up to keep people in - not out - because they had a murderous, totalitarian government. Which is quite a different situation from putting up a sign that says, "Hey *****! This is your country's border. There are land mines on the other side of this big tall fence with barb wire all over it. Whatever you do, do NOT attempt to breach it because you could get killed or seriously injured. For your own safety turnaround and go home." I think this is much more than just a little bit different than putting up a wall and shooting at people trying to escape your own country. And my comment was dumb?
    Yes, I'll restate my first opinion, that this is the dumbest post I've ever read here on treocentral! Your argument makes no sense...the Berlin Wall was saying, "Hey *****, we don't want you to cross the wall, you could get killed or seriously injured if you try (via lead poisoning). Turn around and go home". This is along the same lines as your proposal....this is wrong on so many levels that I'm dumbfounded that a person would even propose it. You are severally out of touch with reality! How old are you?!
  14. #34  
    I think even if we went with landmines, it would just increase the levels of human trafficking. People can get across on foot, by plane, by truck, by boat. They have constructed tunnels hundreds of yards long (not just for trafficking but also for the drug trade.) We have to accept that people are going to get across. What we do after that depends on your politics. If you really want to prevent illegal immigration, you have to decrease the incentive to come to the US (i.e. more crackdowns on hiring illegals, less visas, better trade agreements with South America and Mexico, etc.)
  15. z3bum's Avatar
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    #35  
    First of all, let me say that second only to a nuclear bomb, mines are the worst kind of defense a country can do. Mines do not deter desparate people, but they do cripple innocent children, and present a huge environmental threat for years after their emplacement. To take this to the extreme for a second... If you really want to stop someone from coming into the US, why not sit on a hilltop and pick them off one at a time with a 50 caliber machine gun? Their death would be instantaneous and painless compared to being blown up by a mine. (see how crazy it is?)

    The real issue with illegal immigrants is not so much the fact that they work for less, but that a lot of pregnant women come over to work, have children who become US citizens and then stop working and go on welfare to take care of their new kid! The ones who just come to the US to pick strawberries and then go back home are not really a problem. They earn more in the US than Mexico, live better because the cost of living is far less than here, and don't burden our public services. If these folks were in the tax system, they would actually get money from us, as really, very poor people don't pay taxes. (95 percent of our taxes are paid by about 7 percent of the population) The solution to reduce illegal immigration is simple... if your parents are not US citizens, and you are born here... you don't become a citizen until you are 21 years old! No free lunch.

    The scary part of all this is that our borders are also open to terrorists. What stops a clever person from bringing in small surface to air missiles, bombs and teams of folks to deploy them? So much uninspected shipping comes through that it's unbelievable. In fact, many Chinese immigrants get into the US this way, living in containers, and forced to work in sweat shops to pay off their passage to the US.

    Yes the border problem is a difficult one, but it won't be solved by threatening to murder or mame civilians, what kind of example would we be setting for the rest of the world?
    Palm III -> Palm V -> Blue Palm Vx w/Omnisky -> Treo 270 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 650 -> Treo 680
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by z3bum
    The solution to reduce illegal immigration is simple... if your parents are not US citizens, and you are born here... you don't become a citizen until you are 21 years old! No free lunch.
    While I agree with you (and living in LA County, I'd love for this to happen), you would need to ammend the Constitution for that to happen. That is NOT a simple thing to do.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  17. #37  
    Better yet, don't reward criminal behavior, you are an American citizen if you are born to an American citizen ONLY !
  18.    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix
    Where have you been Bob? I thought the INS had finally deported you!
    Not only did the INS deport me, it took me 4 or 5 tries to get back across the border. A wall of protesting Rico types shielded me from bullets as a I ran across the desert. Thank god there were no landmines. I wouldn't even have tried. That'd be plain stupid. Even more lucky was that one of the times I got caught, I got the phone number of a cute border patrol girl. She told me to call her next time I was in the US. I did and guess what? She's pregnant. Isn't that great? Hopefully she will have a daughter. That way she can keep her mom's last name and when she gets old enough I can marry my daughter and become a US citizen. Of course it will simply be a marriage of convenience and nothing inappropriate.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  19. #39  
    I think the bush administration has it wrong regarding the mexican border patrol.
    bush vows to fight terrorism abroad in order to avoid having to fight it here in our own country - which is fine. but what's stopping them from coming into our country should they be so bold again?
    to leave our doors wide open while we take on such a task?
    utterly puzzling.
    I mean if they staged another 9/11 -type attack on us successfully by sneaking something across our border, it would be a humiliation of historic proportions to the bush admin..
    the minutemen are great patriots for volunteering to guard the borders without pay, but they need a great deal more to help to make their cause successful. its just hard to believe that, in light of how tragic 9/11 was, we still haven't secured ourselves from another attack from those crossing our borders.
  20.    #40  
    That is EXACTLY why I think we should mine the border. Or have some kind of lethal deterrent to crossing it.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
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