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  1. NRG
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    #161  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    You would think that, wouldn't you, but that isn't the case.

    Every Friday evening Code Pink, etc. holds a "support the troops rally" outside the amputee wing of Walter Reed. Signs like, "Maimed for a Lie" are very much in abundance.

    Since these people aren't wild-eyed Christian anti-abortion zealots, you won't see them on the Today Show.
    Well I support their message of ending the war, but I don't support the way they are doing it. It looks like it started as a protest to stop the closing of WRH but they have extended their message to "other" things.


    On the other subject what was your thoughts on Delay's lawyers waiving the statue of limitations?
  2. #162  
    I think he was stupid to cooperate to that extent in the first place...but he would have been PILLORIED had he not. As we have seen, that hasn't made any difference.

    Fox News this morning called it a "technical defense". Considering that Earle has been trying for YEARS to indict Delay, presenting "evidence" to more than six grand juries, well, I think the evidence for an ethics charge against him (Earle) can be made.

    Then there is the ex post facto nature of the original charge, which will no doubt be thrown out of court. Of course, I shouldn't be surprised. The "Lautenberg Amendment" put criminal sanction to 30 year old simple assault charges, denying people the right to own firearms for misdemeanor convictoins. Bill Clinton raised taxes retroactively, if I call. All Ex Post Facto. What's next, bills of attainder?
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    #163  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Well I support their message of ending the war, but I don't support the way they are doing it. It looks like it started as a protest to stop the closing of WRH but they have extended their message to "other" things.


    On the other subject what was your thoughts on Delay's lawyers waiving the statue of limitations?
    Acrually the protest started well before the BRAC list came out with Walter Reed targeted. The closure list is what brought the protest to public attention.
  4. NRG
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    #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardio
    Acrually the protest started well before the BRAC list came out with Walter Reed targeted. The closure list is what brought the protest to public attention.
    Thanks for the correction.
  5. #165  
    I actually met Cindy Sheehan the previous weekend during the antiwar protests.

    She's a very nice woman -- kind, with a touch of innocence still very much about her.

    At her core is not a sophisticated trained advocate -- but a hurting mother who doesn't know why her son was wrested from her ...
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  6. #166  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I actually met Cindy Sheehan the previous weekend during the antiwar protests.

    She's a very nice woman -- kind, with a touch of innocence still very much about her.

    At her core is not a sophisticated trained advocate -- but a hurting mother who doesn't know why her son was wrested from her ...
    Her son was a man that made a man's choice. He volunteered for another tour of duty in Iraq. He volunteered for the mission that led to his death. She's actually protesting her son. I wonder if that irony ever dawned upon her?
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    #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I actually met Cindy Sheehan the previous weekend during the antiwar protests.

    She's a very nice woman -- kind, with a touch of innocence still very much about her.

    At her core is not a sophisticated trained advocate -- but a hurting mother who doesn't know why her son was wrested from her ...
    Not the Cindy I know. I am not saying that you did not see that side of her but you had a limitied interaction in a defined setting. The death of her child has changed her dramatically, as I imagine it would anyone, but she has now become consumed with hatred.
  8. #168  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Didn't I see you outside of Walter Reed last week, shrieking at the amputees?
    I was there last week but we're doing work there.... And what's one got to do with the other anyway?
  9. #169  
    "A Travis County grand jury last week refused to indict former U.S. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay as prosecutors raced to salvage their felony case against the Sugar Land Republican."

    The rest here: http://www.statesman.com/metrostate/...10/5earle.html

    The Hammer is going to go after Saint Ronnie. I wonder what the Texas Bar Association is thinking of all this?
  10. NRG
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    #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    "A Travis County grand jury last week refused to indict former U.S. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay as prosecutors raced to salvage their felony case against the Sugar Land Republican."

    The rest here: http://www.statesman.com/metrostate/...10/5earle.html

    The Hammer is going to go after Saint Ronnie. I wonder what the Texas Bar Association is thinking of all this?
    Let's see what the judge has to say about the conspiracy charge. My feeling is still that Delay made a deal for the conspiracy charge(the leeser of what he could be charged with) and then he reneged on the deal, hence the new charges.
  11. #171  
    This whole process has been seriously tainted:
    1) Grand Jury Shopping.
    2) Getting an indictment on a crime that wasn't a crime when it was committed.
    3) Making a movie of the whole process
    4) Broadcasting at a Democrat fundraiser that he was going after Delay.

    I think when all is said and done that Ronnie is going to get a big dose of what he was trying to dish out. Of course, this is Austin/Travis County, so anything is possible.
  12. #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    This whole process has been seriously tainted:
    1) Grand Jury Shopping.
    2) Getting an indictment on a crime that wasn't a crime when it was committed.
    3) Making a movie of the whole process
    4) Broadcasting at a Democrat fundraiser that he was going after Delay.

    I think when all is said and done that Ronnie is going to get a big dose of what he was trying to dish out. Of course, this is Austin/Travis County, so anything is possible.

    I sadly expect the bug killer to get some sympathetic judge to shift the case to some sympathetic region of Texas (i.e. anywhere but Austin ...)

    that's what's really called jury shopping ...
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  13. #173  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I sadly expect the bug killer to get some sympathetic judge to shift the case to some sympathetic region of Texas (i.e. anywhere but Austin ...)

    that's what's really called jury shopping ...
    You guys just can't STAND anyone that hasn't drawn a government check every day of their lives, can you?

    As far as Delay being an exterminator, that may explain why he has been so effective in taking democrats out of power.
  14. #174  
    I wonder if Newsweak will every run an article entitled, "Bubba's Wife: How Hillary Rode Coattails to Power"?
    Last edited by 1911sforever; 10/05/2005 at 04:47 PM.
  15. #175  
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...800292_pf.html

    Will Earle be doing a perp walk, or just be disbarred?
  16. NRG
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    #176  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...800292_pf.html

    Will Earle be doing a perp walk, or just be disbarred?
    DeLay Lawyers: D.A. Tried to Coerce Jurors

    That is all I need to see. Let's let the court work.
  17. #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    DeLay Lawyers: D.A. Tried to Coerce Jurors

    That is all I need to see. Let's let the court work.
    Two people familiar with the proceedings of the grand jury that declined to indict DeLay told The Associated Press that Earle tried to persuade jurors that the congressman tacitly approved the scheme.

    They said the prosecutor became angry when the grand jury decided against an indictment. The people familiar with the proceeding insisted on anonymity because of grand jury secrecy.
    Delay's side can disclose whatever it chooses from the grand jury proceedings. These quotes are from people within the prosecution or the grand jury itself.
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  18. #178  
    As I earlier wrote, the BUG KILLER'S fate is dependent on finding a sympathetic judge (and he has many in Texas) who'll send the trial to a more friendly venue.

    If he goes to trial as things are now, with the evidence as I have already heard it -- I'd expect a conviction on the money laundering charge and a sentence of several months (probably suspended).

    This article by John Dean (ex-lawyer, former WH counsel, whistle blower) describes some of the BUG KILLER'S potental legal jeopardy:


    The Case Against Tom DeLay
    By JOHN W. DEAN findlaw.com Oct. 07, 2005

    ...The Charges Against DeLay

    The (now) former Majority Leader of the U.S. House of Representatives was indicted on September 28, and again on October 2, by two different Travis County, Texas grand juries. The second indictment is far more serious than the first.

    The first indictment charges DeLay with engaging in a criminal conspiracy in violation of Texas Penal Code Section 15.02. It states that DeLay and two of his associates (also indicted) agreed to make corporate political contributions which are prohibited by the Elections Code. If convicted, DeLay faces up to two years in jail and a $10,000 fine.

    Six days later came the second indictment, which is twice the length of the first, with its two counts. The first count charges another conspiracy under Section 15.02, again to violate the election law - but ALSO to launder corporate money, in violation of Texas Penal Code Section 34.02, the state's money laundering prohibition. The second count charges DeLay outright with the offense of money laundering, and because the amount of the money allegedly laundered exceeds $100,000, that is a felony punishable by life in prison.

    ...one of my sources suggests his tactic in filing the motion to dismiss the first indictment when he did, may have been faulty. "DeGuerin probably pulled the trigger too fast," one attorney told me. "Had he waited until it was clear the statute of limitations had passed, and had he made it clear DeLay's waiver of the statute of limitations had ended, he might have done to Earle again what he did in the Kay Bailey Hutchinson case, and raise the technical error when it was too late to fix it. But by going in guns blazing, trying to blow Earle out of the water, Earle simply issued a second indictment to cover himself."

    Another Texas attorney told me he thought that, in any case, DeGuerin's technical argument about the defect in the first indictment would not fly. Texas has had a conspiracy statute forever. And it has had a prohibition against corporate contributions for about as long. So the fact that the state legislature did not get around to adding statutory language picking out, in particular, a conspiracy to violate the elections laws does not seem especially significant. Thus, it probably does not mean, as DeGuerin says, that there cannot be a conspiracy to violate the election laws. This lawyer, a former federal prosecutor, but now active criminal defense attorney, believes that any thinking judge will deny DeGuerin's motion to dismiss the first indictment.

    "But it's irrelevant now, with the second indictment," he added, "and DeLay is in much worse shape under the second indictment."

    Could The Second Indictment Be Barred By The Statute Of Limitations?

    But what if the second indictment is barred by the statute of limitations for the offenses it describes?

    The issue of whether the statutory limitations period has expired is complicated by the fact that DeGuerin at least temporarily waived his client's ability to raise the statute of limitations as a defense. In the first indictment, this waiver is set forth.

    But only temporarily: When DeGuerin filed his motion to dismiss the first indictment, he simultaneously sent a letter to District Attorney Ronnie Earle, advising him that DeLay was now withdrawing his waiver of his client's ability to raise the statute of limitations as a defense. Clearly, this was a move by DeGuerin to cut off further indictments.

    So now that the waiver has expired, has the statute of limitations elapsed vis--vis the second indictment? It seems the answer is probably no.

    When I asked two Texas attorneys who have been following the case in the news, as well as on their respective local grapevines (but neither has insider information), I got a unanimous opinion that Earle's second indictment was timely. As one put it, "The reason DeLay is pissed is that Earle moved faster than they thought he could. He found a spanking new grand jury, and he had a new indictment within hours. That suggests to me that Ronnie Earle has some good evidence." "Those Austin grand jurors usually aren't push-overs," he told me.

    This attorney continued, "It is my understanding that the reason Earle's office moved so fast was because the day the motion to dismiss arrived was the last day under the Texas statute of limitations to charge DeLay with money-laundering." So Earle got the second indictment just in the nick of time. (Incidentally, the same source reminded me that DeLay's associates, and now alleged co-conspirators, John D. Colyandro and James W. Ellis, had also been previously indicted for money laundering.)

    While this attorney said he had not looked at the docket in the Colyandro and Ellis cases, he had read news accounts indicating that these defendants have been filing, and losing, a number of motion against their separate money laundering charges.
    In short, it seems that Earle's money laundering case has been poked and probed, and found to be solid.


    "These money launder charges against DeLay are going to trial,"...

    DeLay's Foolish Untruthful Public Statements About The Case

    ...One experienced criminal defense attorneys (from Texas, who is following the case closely) volunteered his surprise that DeLay was going around to radio and television shows to speak out on the matter. DeLay has visited Rush Limbaugh's show, Sean Hannity's, and Chris Mathews's "Hardball" to mention a few. At each stop, DeLay repeats his claim that the grand jury had no basis, no evidence whatsoever, to indict him.

    "It is just not smart for a criminal defendant to blabber on," the attorney told me. "Those public statements will come back to haunt Tom DeLay in a courtroom, probably early next year." I asked that he be more specific.

    This attorney said he had watched DeLay contradict himself on "Hardball," and then, apparently, lie about never having been requested to appear before the grand jury. ...

    Referring to the fund-raising entity at the heart of the case, Texans for a Republican Majority PAC, DeLay told Mathews, "TRMPAC is a separate entity. I had no fiduciary responsibilities. I had no managerial responsibilities. I had nothing to do with the day-to-day operation. I was simply, along with four other elected officials, on an advisory board. They used my name as headliners for fund-raisers."

    A few minutes later, though, the transcript reflects that DeLay is contradicting himself. He tells Mathews he was, in effect, deeply involved: "Everything TRMPAC did -- and I insisted on -- to even be on their board of advisers. Now, TRMPAC was my idea. I wanted the Texas House to be a Republican majority. And I went down there and worked with them to do that. We were successful."


    One DeLay lie that seemed to stir several of the grand jurors into speaking out, was his false statement that the grand jury and the prosecutor had ignored him. In fact, they claimed, the grand jurors had requested DeLay be invited to appear, and Ronnie Earle had transmitted their request to DeLay, but DeLay refused, submitting an unsworn written statement in lieu of an appearance, which would have been required to be under oath.

    Nevertheless, DeLay told Mathews: "[The grand jury and prosecutor] [n]ever ask[ed] me to testify
    , never doing anything for two years."

    ..."We had information that was presented to us," Gibson [the Grand Jury Foreman] continued, "and the twelve members of that grand jury decided that was enough evidence to warrant that indictment."

    "Would you have liked to have heard from Mr. DeLay?" Gibson was asked.

    "We had requested. He had answered with Ronnie Earle the district attorney. But he would not go under oath
    . He gave a statement to Mr. Earle. That statement was presented to the grand jury. We had requested that Mr. DeLay visit with us. He was given an open invitation but he never did appear."...
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  19. NRG
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    #180  
    With all of Tom's actions could we see another indictment?

    "conspiracy to pervert the course of justice"

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