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  1. #221  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    This is the sh** I was referring to earlier in this thread.
    Well, it is Mr. Delay's right to have an impartial jury/judge. I would want the same thing. (However I am not convinced that just because someone gives money to a political cause that they can't remain impartial.)

    I personally would prefer a judge that has a record of being fairminded over one that simply has given money to one political party or another.
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  2. #222  
    That is exactly what finally happenned. Delay didn't want an extreme left liberal judge, which donations to MoveOn.org may indicate. Then Ronnie didn't want the next judge because he donated to the Rep party. The last judge appointed did donate to the Dem party, but has a fair and balance court record. Delay's team said 'Great, let's move ahead'.
  3. #223  
    the liberal Wall Street Journal tells of more criminal behavior being pursued against the BUG KILLER and other congressional Repugs...


    Federal Influence-Peddling Inquiry
    Casts Wider Net

    Four Lawmakers' Dealings
    With Lobbyist Are Studied;
    Low Threshold for Bribery?

    By BRODY MULLINS THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
    November 25, 2005; Page A1

    WASHINGTON -- A Justice Department investigation into possible influence-peddling by prominent Republican lobbyist Jack Abramoff is examining his dealings with four lawmakers, more than a dozen current and former congressional aides and two former Bush administration officials, according to lawyers and others involved in the case...

    The Justice Department's probe is far broader than previously thought. Though it remains smaller than the congressional influence-peddling scandals of the 1970s, its focus on prominent Republicans raises the risk of serious embarrassment to the party before next year's congressional elections. Those involved in Mr. Abramoff's case say that the Justice Department investigation could take years to complete...

    Prosecutors also are investigating at least 17 current and former congressional aides, about half of whom later took lobbying jobs with Mr. Abramoff, say lawyers and others involved in the case. Five of the former aides worked for Mr. DeLay, including Tony Rudy, Ed Buckham and Susan Hirschmann. The three were top aides to Mr. DeLay and are now Washington lobbyists...

    It had been widely assumed in Washington that prosecutors were scrutinizing Mr. DeLay's dealings with Mr. Abramoff, who were longtime political allies. Mr. Abramoff took Mr. DeLay and several of his then aides on an expensive golf trip to Scotland several years ago. Mr. DeLay stepped down as House majority leader two month ago after he was indicted in Texas on unrelated campaign-finance charges...
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  4. #224  
    Given the shakedowns/bribes that take place in the Bureau of Indians Affairs this is going to spread.

    Still not as brazen as taking sequentially numbered money orders from Buddhist monks and then claiming "no legal controlling authority".
  5. #225  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Given the shakedowns/bribes that take place in the Bureau of Indians Affairs this is going to spread.

    Still not as brazen as taking sequentially numbered money orders from Buddhist monks and then claiming "no legal controlling authority".

    I assume you're referring to Al Gore -- was he indicted for any illegality ??

    (perhaps I've forgotten, my brain is kind of mushy as I prepare to flee the country...)
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  6. #226  
    No, he was never indicted.

    Of course, he never had the hounds set upon him, either. And, silly him. There turns out to be a controlling legal authority afterall
  7. NRG
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    #227  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Given the shakedowns/bribes that take place in the Bureau of Indians Affairs this is going to spread.

    Still not as brazen as taking sequentially numbered money orders from Buddhist monks and then claiming "no legal controlling authority".
    Spread it will indeed. Did you look at the GOP scorecard?
  8. #228  
    Quote Originally Posted by NRG
    Spread it will indeed. Did you look at the GOP scorecard?
    The money graph:
    "Democrats are hoping to gain political advantage from federal and Senate investigations of Abramoff's activities and from the embattled lobbyist's former ties to House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.). Yet, many Democratic lawmakers also benefited from Abramoff's political operation, a fact that could hinder the Democrats' efforts to turn the lobbyist's troubles into a winning partisan issue."

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...202158_pf.html
  9. #229  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    The money graph:
    "Democrats are hoping to gain political advantage from federal and Senate investigations of Abramoff's activities and from the embattled lobbyist's former ties to House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.). Yet, many Democratic lawmakers also benefited from Abramoff's political operation, a fact that could hinder the Democrats' efforts to turn the lobbyist's troubles into a winning partisan issue."

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...202158_pf.html
    Only marginally related, but our Democrat Wisconsin governor is a wholly-owned subsidiary of our Indian gaming industry. Tribal money (like any other) is a bi-partisan corruptor.
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  10. NRG
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    #230  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    The money graph:
    "Democrats are hoping to gain political advantage from federal and Senate investigations of Abramoff's activities and from the embattled lobbyist's former ties to House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.). Yet, many Democratic lawmakers also benefited from Abramoff's political operation, a fact that could hinder the Democrats' efforts to turn the lobbyist's troubles into a winning partisan issue."

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...202158_pf.html
    Agreed, their are going to be Dems involved. Although it is going to be more prevalent on the (R) side I think.

    I really think lobbying should be brought to a grinding halt. Only folks and companies from a Reps. district should be allowed to lobby that particular Rep.
  11. #231  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    The money graph:
    "Democrats are hoping to gain political advantage from federal and Senate investigations of Abramoff's activities and from the embattled lobbyist's former ties to House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.). Yet, many Democratic lawmakers also benefited from Abramoff's political operation, a fact that could hinder the Democrats' efforts to turn the lobbyist's troubles into a winning partisan issue."

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...202158_pf.html

    that article -- from last JUNE -- is out of date.

    Junior's justice department is reported to be readying indictments against REPUBLICANS (only REPUBLICANS).

    to equate the money that those republicans took with what went to the democrats would be like drawing an association with a dog catcher accepting a "gratuity" and the mayor.

    The republicans control absolutely EVERYTHING in the national government. (The only thing that lack is any sense of responsibility.)

    Democrats have had about as much influence on policy during junior's years as that dog catcher. When the BUG KILLER takes a bribe it matters a lot more than if he were joe nothing democrat.

    And when the bribery is coming from the BUG KILLER'S former staffers -- it gets kinda interesting ...
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  12. #232  
    The majority of indian reservations are in Dem districts.

    Oh, and when you refer to "Junior's justice department" preparing to indict only Republicans, and then in the next sentence state that the Republicans lack any sense of responsibility...well, it kind of undercuts your argument and puts you into the barking moonbat corner.

    I forget...which Clinton staffer took money from a tribe and then snookered them?
  13. #233  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    The majority of indian reservations are in Dem districts.

    Oh, and when you refer to "Junior's justice department" preparing to indict only Republicans, and then in the next sentence state that the Republicans lack any sense of responsibility...well, it kind of undercuts your argument and puts you into the barking moonbat corner.

    If most of the Indian reservations are represented by democrats -- why has nearly all the money gone to Repugs ???

    lemme take a guess:

    maybe because they're a bunch of venal hypocrites !!

    they're folks who don't bat an eyelash when they're decrying gambling on Sunday, while being whores to casinos and their cash the rest of the week...

    Oh and about that snide complement of "junior's justice department" -- goodness I was all wrong on that.

    Very sorry.

    It appears that it really wasn't "junior's justice department" that handled this at all. Probably it was the "Office of Public Integrity" division of the Justice dept. which is run by professional non-political prosecutors -- and which is in charge of gov't corruption investigations.

    In other words it was the "country's justice dept." that is handling the investigation (not junior's.)
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/27/2005 at 09:40 AM.
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  14. #234  
    Sorry to disappoint, but:

    Delay conspiracy Charge Dismissed

    http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/05/D8EABJEO1.html
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  15. #235  
    Regarding the remaining charge - a prosecutorial misconduct hearing remains to be held. Even if the remaining indictment survives that, note that in MN a GOP politician was just acquitted of very similar charges last week.

    http://www.saukherald.com/Main.asp?S...ArticleID=5685

    I presume NRG is updating his list with equal zeal as folks are vindicated.
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  16. #236  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    that article -- from last JUNE -- is out of date.

    Junior's justice department is reported to be readying indictments against REPUBLICANS (only REPUBLICANS).

    to equate the money that those republicans took with what went to the democrats would be like drawing an association with a dog catcher accepting a "gratuity" and the mayor.

    The republicans control absolutely EVERYTHING in the national government. (The only thing that lack is any sense of responsibility.)

    Democrats have had about as much influence on policy during junior's years as that dog catcher. When the BUG KILLER takes a bribe it matters a lot more than if he were joe nothing democrat.

    And when the bribery is coming from the BUG KILLER'S former staffers -- it gets kinda interesting ...
    Ah....Barye....stating ONLY Reps were in involved is apparently and absolutely not true when according to the Washington Post 1/3 of the money in this scandal went to VERY high ranking Dems while 2/3 of the money going to Rep. Including the second biggest taker of money being a Dem. Dems playing this as a major advantage against the GOP may find that because they are involved in 1/3 of over $4 million money grabbing in the very same deal may prove to be just as bad for their side.

    Truthfully I think the difference going to each party is not a matter of one being more or less ethical than the other, but shows the difference in the current holding of power. It was just a matter of opportunity, if the Dems had been in power I think the percentages would have flipped accordingly.

    How can they say "Just ignore that we took 1/3 of the scandaled money, just see what the GOP did!".

    Here is what I said in another thread when NRG made claim along the same lines:

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=853648&postcount=64

    Again, there is no doubt that Reps were involved, but again the Dems had their hand in the cookie jar as well:


    Democrats Also Got Tribal Donations
    Abramoff Issue's Fallout May Extend Beyond the GOP


    By Jeffrey H. Birnbaum and Derek Willis
    Washington Post Staff Writers


    Lobbyist Jack Abramoff and an associate famously collected $82 million in lobbying and public relations fees from six Indian tribes and devoted a lot of their time to trying to persuade Republican lawmakers to act on their clients' behalf.

    But Abramoff didn't work just with Republicans. He oversaw a team of two dozen lobbyists at the law firm Greenberg Traurig that included many Democrats. Moreover, the campaign contributions that Abramoff directed from the tribes went to Democratic as well as Republican legislators.

    Among the biggest beneficiaries were Capitol Hill's most powerful Democrats, including Thomas A. Daschle (S.D.) and Harry M. Reid (Nev.), the top two Senate Democrats at the time, Richard A. Gephardt (Mo.), then-leader of the House Democrats, and the two lawmakers in charge of raising funds for their Democratic colleagues in both chambers, according to a Washington Post study. Reid succeeded Daschle as Democratic leader after Daschle lost his Senate seat last November.

    ----------------

    Most lobbying firms here are bipartisan, to give their clients access to key lawmakers of both major parties. Abramoff's group was no exception. Although he was recognized as a Republican lobbyist who was close to DeLay and other party leaders, Abramoff was careful to add at least two Democratic lobbyists to his group during his five years at Greenberg Traurig. By the end, seven of his lobbyists were Democrats.
    ---------------

    But Rep. Patrick J. Kennedy (D-R.I.) ran second, with $128,000 in the same period. From 1999 to 2001, Kennedy chaired the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, which solicited campaign donations for House candidates.

    The Indians' largess flowed to higher-ranking Democrats as well. Senate Democratic leaders Reid and Daschle each received more than $40,000 from the tribes and from lobbyists on Abramoff's team during the period. Gephardt got $32,500.

    Of the 18 largest recipients of tribe contributions directed by Abramoff's group, six, or one-third, were Democrats. These included Sen. Patty Murray (Wash.), who chaired the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee from 2001 to 2002, and Sen. Byron L. Dorgan (N.D.), a leader in Indian affairs legislation.

    Over that period, while Abramoff and his lobbyists directed nearly $4 million in funds from the tribes to lawmakers, they also gave from their own pockets. Two-thirds of the total went to Republicans and one-third was handed out to Democrats, according to The Post's calculations.


    FULL STORY: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...202158_pf.html


    Here is a copy of the full size graphic that shows everything in detail:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 12/05/2005 at 07:24 PM.
  17. #237  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Ah....Barye....stating ONLY Reps were in involved is apparently and absolutely not true when according to the Washington Post 1/3 of the money in this scandal went to VERY high ranking Dems while 2/3 of the money going to Rep. Including the second biggest taker of money being a Dem. Dems playing this as a major advantage against the GOP may find that because they are involved in 1/3 of over $4 million money grabbing in the very same deal may prove to be just as bad for their side...
    with absolute power comes absolute responsibility

    I've been unsuccessful in getting you to understand Hobbes that the threshold of outrage is different when you are judging the corruption of those with absolute power -- versus those without it.

    When BUG KILLER Delay extorts the advantage of his absolute power:
    to extract bribes from corporate lobbyists; to gerrymander an extra 5 GOP seats, to force the impeachment of a President he hates because of what he saw as Clinton's immorality -- that's qualitatively different from a weak minority accepting tainted contributions, or being a minor part of the GOP's Abramoff corruption scandals, for instance.

    If there's one thing that the corrupt cowardly GOP pansies and their Kool-Aid sucking apologists have mastered in their self-righteous grab for power -- its the absolute denial of responsibility for their moral and material corruption. (the truth of my "Why didn't Clinton deal with Katrina when he was President" refrain, is ever more reinforced here and elsewhere...)

    I'm sick of the whining about how the rich and powerful get judged by a different, more rigorous standard.

    Its why juveniles are judged differently than adults, parents from their children, insurgents from super powers.

    Responsibility is inextricably tied to power -- the power to manipulate events -- the power to alter the course of events.

    Those that have aggressively sought to capture that power, have – whether they acknowledge it or not – also simultaneously captive to that different and much higher standard of accountiblity.

    By conniving to convince enough politicians that Iraq was an immediate threat to us, junior was able to change history and alter events. (He then went into Pottery Barn and broke every pot, kettle, plate and knickknack in the store. Junior then turns to me -- who is outside on the street shouting at him to stay the hell out of that place -- and he tells me that what happened was unforeseeable, but that I was an enabler of his addiction to destruction -- and that I now have to come in to pay for the damage and help clean it up,)

    The strictness of the judgement is additionally shaped by the rigor that the powerful applied a standard to the morality to others:

    When junior posed as a god loving moralist who would clean up Clinton's moral morass; when preachers decry gambling, fornication, and booze (that they themselves regularly partake); when priests pose as arbiters of morality and virtue but use the pretense of their cloak to rape and abuse young boys; when a nation proclaims itself to be the world's shining light of morality and human rights -- but is revealed to be a practitioner and abetter of torture.

    Hobbes -- in deference to the fact that its costing me more than seventy cents an hour to be on the internet -- and that nearly ten minutes of that hour has already been consumed in a so far fruitless quixotic effort to show you the source of your error -- please -- to preserve our friendship -- won’t you simply concede the truth that the GOP is a secret cabal of baby eating serial killers ??

    (still posting from Bangkok)
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    #238  
    "with absolute power comes absolute responsibility

    I've been unsuccessful in getting you to understand Hobbes that the threshold of outrage is different when you are judging the corruption of those with absolute power -- versus those without it. "

    -barye
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------


    what does the following article mean to you?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Among the biggest beneficiaries were Capitol Hill's most powerful Democrats, including Thomas A. Daschle (S.D.) and Harry M. Reid (Nev.), the top two Senate Democrats at the time, Richard A. Gephardt (Mo.), then-leader of the House Democrats, and the two lawmakers in charge of raising funds for their Democratic colleagues in both chambers, according to a Washington Post study. Reid succeeded Daschle as Democratic leader after Daschle lost his Senate seat last November. "

    - THE WASHINGTON POST
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------


    if capitol hill`s MOST POWERFUL democrats ALSO engage in this conniving, material corruption, what, pray tell, is the likelihood, then, of absolute corruption spreading its nasty tendrils throughout the next democratic majority as well should they also achieve absolute power? million dollar question. will you be colorfully namecalling the democrats also should they prove to be no less cowardly and corrupt, as these same shameful practices are simply directed down different avenues under different guises within THEIR agenda?

    i agree that with absolute power comes absolute responsibility, and the repubs must be held accountable for their abuses of this power should they be proven guilty. but barye, if repubs are indeed such "corrupt cowardly GOP pansies with Kool-Aid sucking apologists who have mastered in their self-righteous grab for power ..", who then are our alternatives? Those who are ALSO accepting tainted money contributions? or counting the votes of the dearly departed, etc? are you saying your party is truly the answer despite the fact that we clearly see them engaging in exactly the same tendencies to corrupt as your close personal buddy, the BUG KILLER? does that honestly leave you with good feelings about the habits and "morals" of the party you are fighting here for?
    Last edited by vw2002; 12/06/2005 at 09:17 PM.
  19. #239  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    with absolute power comes absolute responsibility

    I've been unsuccessful in getting you to understand Hobbes that the threshold of outrage is different when you are judging the corruption of those with absolute power -- versus those without it.
    No, I do understand that you have stated your opinion that Corruption from Rep is inexcusable due to them being voted into absolute power by the American people and needs to be punished and the Corruption from the Dems is totally excusable because they are the minority and does not need to be addressed and simply overlooked and forgiven.

    But you have failed to understand (or actually unable to comprehend that I can say this in all honesty) that I Don't Care What Party They Belong To....If They Are Corrupt, If They Have Committed A Crime, If They Broke The Law....Then They Need To Be Held Accountable. No matter what party they belong to. So I will try to repeat it in as many ways as possible to help clarify.

    You seem to have missed the fact that several times over I have NEVER denied and actually AGREED that there is corruption among the Rep party.......but I also do not deny that there is Corruption among the Dem party as well and should be held to the same accountability as the Reps.

    A Dem card in the wallet is not a free pass to break the law, especially while wagging their finger at someone else who did just the same thing they currently are doing themselves (Jack Abramoff being a prime example).

    Being a Rep does not give the "moral highground" to break the law.

    AGAIN, MY WHOLE POINT >>>>> No political party affiliation gives special privileges to breaking the law and not being held accountable for breaking the law. Period. <<<<<<

    If you want to go after corruption, There is plenty on BOTH sides of the fence ( for a detailed example click here: http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=853222&postcount=62 and then see my post above) and there is NO doubt that BOTH sides need a very humbling shakedown.

    You are for a Rep shakedown (which is fine by me if done responsibly without frivolous indictments), but at the same time you are unwilling to acknowledge that the exact same acts are currently being done by the Dems as well. The corruption of the Dem party is what made it being voted out by the American people and loose total control in the first place. Now the Reps are hypocritically doing much of the same things that the Dems were doing then....plus the Dems are still doing the same thing right along side the Reps as well!

    Fight corruption? Yes, without party lines becoming an issue. If that is not able to happen, it becomes a biased witch hunt and hypocritical and only ends up removing one current wave of corruption with a new one already well practiced and established to take its place.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 12/13/2005 at 02:41 PM.
  20. NRG
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    #240  
    Quote Originally Posted by phurth
    Sorry to disappoint, but:

    Delay conspiracy Charge Dismissed

    http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/05/D8EABJEO1.html
    There still is 2 remaining charges left. We shall see.

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