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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Not at all. As I said, for instance children are always innocent in my view. I guess most if not all victims are innocent, regardless of whether they are children or adults, no?
    I don't understand your example. What does the father do in this expample?

    I thought you were referring to homosexuality in your previous mail. In that case, I don't see a victim. Some people are heterosexual, others are homosexual. It is a very common thing in nature, not only in humans.
    That is exactly what I was refering to. And like it or not children are victomized by this behavior.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    That assumes that what the two adults do in private has no impact on the rest of society.

    I offer that in the same way that a fantasy can progress into behavior, so can interaction with a consensual partner progress into forced behavior with a subsequent partner.

    When one moves on to a new/different/additonal partner, his/her appetite from the the previous interactions is not disabled. It is not a large leap to consider that the one in the heat of the moment may attempt to force the new partner to do the same stuff to which he/she has become accustomed.
    Also here I don't understand what you mean.

    However, as a said, consensual is the key word. Whatever you meant, it seemed to be consensual with the first partner. If it is "forced behaviour" with the next partner, then it is an entirely different thing.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    That assumes that what the two adults do in private has no impact on the rest of society.

    I offer that in the same way that a fantasy can progress into behavior, so can interaction with a consensual partner progress into forced behavior with a subsequent partner.

    When one moves on to a new/different/additonal partner, his/her appetite from the the previous interactions is not disabled. It is not a large leap to consider that the one in the heat of the moment may attempt to force the new partner to do the same stuff to which he/she has become accustomed.
    Exactly.
    The percentage of same sex rape is quite high.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Also here I don't understand what you mean.

    However, as a said, consensual is the key word. Whatever you meant, it seemed to be consensual with the first partner. If it is "forced behaviour" with the next partner, then it is an entirely different thing.
    Yes, but like you said... acceptance breeds progression.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    That is exactly what I was refering to. And like it or not children are victomized by this behavior.
    So the father of your nephew is gay? I am sure this is/would be difficult for his son to understand. It is difficult to understand for every child that his/her father/mother doesn't love his mother/father any more, but somebody else, but in this case more complicated, of course.

    In a more open and tolerant society, the (now) father would have come out of the closet earlier, and the unfortunate chain of events would not have started at all.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    In a more open and tolerant society, the (now) father would have come out of the closet earlier, and the unfortunate chain of events would not have started at all.
    So a tolerant society does in fact encourage this behavior. That is exactly what I was talking about.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    Yes, but like you said... acceptance breeds progression.
    No, I never said we should favour acceptance of anything not consensual.

    Look at marriage and making love between a man and a woman. Would you find THAT acceptable if it was not consensual? So, you see, the question is whether it is consensual or not. Being homosexual is not bad per se, nor does it have a negative influence on those who are not homosexual.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    So a tolerant society does in fact encourage this behavior. That is exactly what I was talking about.
    You got that wrong. In a tolerant society a homosexual person is allowed to live a life as homosexual person. He/she does not feel forced to hide his/her homosexual nature, to get married and have kids. An intolerant society forced the situation you described.
    Last edited by clulup; 04/19/2005 at 02:33 PM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    In a more open and tolerant society, the (now) father would have come out of the closet earlier, and the unfortunate chain of events would not have started at all.
    I agree with you here. After fathering a child, now is not the time to "decide" you're gay. (and no, i don't think it is a decision.)
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    So the father of your nephew is gay? I am sure this is/would be difficult for his son to understand. It is difficult to understand for every child that his/her father/mother doesn't love his mother/father any more, but somebody else, but in this case more complicated, of course.

    In a more open and tolerant society, the (now) father would have come out of the closet earlier, and the unfortunate chain of events would not have started at all.
    It has absolutey nothing to do with "why doesn't my father love my mother any more" He was born out of wedlock wich also could have been avoided by a LESS tolerant society.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    It has absolutey nothing to do with "why doesn't my father love my mother any more" He was born out of wedlock wich also could have been avoided by a LESS tolerant society.
    As mentioned before, I am not in favour of tolerating anything. That would be indifference, not tolerance. Homosexuality is easy to tolerate because it does not harm anybody. To father a child and then run away does hurt people and society. Maybe more tolerance towards contraceptives would have helped?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    Homosexuality is easy to tolerate because it does not harm anybody.
    That's an opinion...and my opinion is completely opposite.... I think it harms society, I think it harms the constitution of marriage, and I think it harms individuals via. the larger population of HIV in homosexuals. The first two I feel are more of my opinion and I feel the third is more of a fact (but then again, I guess the third being more of a fact could be argued and considered an opinion )
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    As mentioned before, I am not in favour of tolerating anything. That would be indifference, not tolerance. Homosexuality is easy to tolerate because it does not harm anybody.
    else. It does not harm anybody else.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    else. It does not harm anybody else.
    I always appreciate the intellect in your post.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg
    I always appreciate the intellect in your post.
    aww shucks
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    That's an opinion...and my opinion is completely opposite.... I think it harms society, I think it harms the constitution of marriage, and I think it harms individuals via. the larger population of HIV in homosexuals. The first two I feel are more of my opinion and I feel the third is more of a fact (but then again, I guess the third being more of a fact could be argued and considered an opinion )
    How exactly does homosexuality harm society?

    It may be true that HIV is more common in homosexuals than in heterosexuals (although the ratio is changing towards heterosexuals - if taking into consideration the African population, it is quite even). But that doesn't mean a lot. E.g. diabetes and obesity are much more common in the population of the US than in Europe, but that doesn't mean US citizens are bad, does it?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim
    else. It does not harm anybody else.
    What you are trying to say is that homosexuals hurt themselves? How exactly?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    How exactly does homosexuality harm society?

    It may be true that HIV is more common in homosexuals than in heterosexuals (although the ratio is changing towards heterosexuals - if taking into consideration the African population, it is quite even). But that doesn't mean a lot. E.g. diabetes and obesity are much more common in the population of the US than in Europe, but that doesn't mean US citizens are bad, does it?
    Again, this is my opinion, but homosexuality harms society by degrading its morality. This comes from my feelings that homosexuality is morally wrong. And therefore a society that accepts it has lost it's morals.

    And as for you corrolating homosexuality and obesity...you stated how homosexuality harmed people and I gave you an example of the higher rate of disease passed on by homosexuals. Not saying they're good nor bad...but just stating a way that homosexuality can hurt people. (And I actually thought of the African crisis when I posted my first response which is why I edited it with the "but then again, I guess the third being more of a fact could be argued and considered an opinion" line ) I also would like to point out that you, probably inadvertantly, put words in my mouth that I thought homosexuals are bad.... I don't feel this way. Homosexuality is bad, not homosexuals.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    What you are trying to say is that homosexuals hurt themselves? How exactly?
    I'm not going to speak for shopharim...but...

    1) Cannot pass on your traits through homosexuality
    2) Higher instance of disease
    3) Religious (which some don't even care to believe)
    4) Psychological - Choosing a lifestyle that seems "off" by society in general even if they say they accept it. (i.e. strange looks by two males kissing in public).

    Those have the big three in my eyes...hurting someone physically, mentally, and spiritually and that's just off the top of my head.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by RicoM
    Again, this is my opinion, but homosexuality harms society by degrading its morality. This comes from my feelings that homosexuality is morally wrong. And therefore a society that accepts it has lost it's morals.

    And as for you corrolating homosexuality and obesity...you stated how homosexuality harmed people and I gave you an example of the higher rate of disease passed on by homosexuals. Not saying they're good nor bad...but just stating a way that homosexuality can hurt people. (And I actually thought of the African crisis when I posted my first response which is why I edited it with the "but then again, I guess the third being more of a fact could be argued and considered an opinion" line ) I also would like to point out that you, probably inadvertantly, put words in my mouth that I thought homosexuals are bad.... I don't feel this way. Homosexuality is bad, not homosexuals.
    And not trying to speak for Clu, but I think he is talking in the overall scheme. That is to say, to couples in love, living a productive life, but for the fact that they are gay, are not harming anyone else.

    Contrast that with the alcoholic, who can't keep a job. Neglects his family. Gets in his car intoxicated, etc...this is more a threat than the homosexual is to society.

    Granted, I'm not advocating "in your face homosexuality." I say keep it in home. I don't need to know you're gay. I don't walk up to everyone I meet and announce I'm straight, nor do I feel the need for a "Straight-Pride" parade.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
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