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  1.    #1  
    Full Story

    "Border volunteers tripping sensors used to detect illegal crossers

    Arthur H. Rotstein
    Arthur H. Rotstein Associated Press
    Apr. 4, 2005 11:45 AM

    TOMBSTONE - Citizens who volunteered to patrol the Mexican border for illegal immigrants and smugglers are disrupting Border Patrol operations by tripping sensors that alert agents to possible illegal crossings, an agency spokesman said Monday.

    Even though volunteers for the Minuteman Project were only beginning their regular, monthlong patrols Monday, they have unwittingly set off sensors during the past few days, forcing agents to respond to what essentially is a false alarm, said Supervisory Border Patrol Agent Jose Maheda.

    "Every sensor has to be addressed," Maheda said. "It's taken away from our normal operations."... "
  2. #2  
    I am all for controlling our borders but sending essentially untrained people out into the 'field' does not seem to be the answer. Maybe its because on the news I get the perception that these people really don't know what they are doing?
  3. #3  
    Mixed feelings on this. On one hand, our borders are porous and need more boots on the ground. But I'm not in favor of vigilantism either, not that I believe the Minutemen are mob rule.

    What's the solution? Military patrols on the border? Maybe it's time for a full-time branch, like the Coast Guard, however one that patrols the inland borders of both Canada and Mexico...
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    ...like the Coast Guard, however one that patrols the inland borders of both Canada and Mexico...
    I agree, as costly electronic sensors on the Great White North border are pointless as a quick visual of our snowshoe and/or dogsled tracks will quickly discourage we Canucks from leaving our igloos... except of course if we're on a beer run and need another two-four...
  5. #5  
    DA, interesting that you would post this. Any comment on the ACLU "observers" that are monitoring the lawful activities of American citizens?

    On another note, I've worked with the Border Patrol on JTF-6 missions. They get sensor hits all the time...and they don't respond to all of them. I think 'ol Jose is pushing the same vigilante angle that his boss used.
  6.    #6  
    I started this thread to address your aclu issues along with my issues regarding this here.

    The aclu is monitoring the potential abuse of immigrants by an armed gang. An armed gang with the intent to confront people based on their skin color is NOT a protected form of speech.

    Obviously the vigilantes are causing more harm than good. The point is, Americans are used to a $1/head lettuce prices and corporations are used to less than minimum wage janitorial crrews. Until they're willing to pay a fair wage, our economy and illegals will be entwined.
  7. #7  
    I agree that 'we' cant have it both ways. I just think it is unproductive (if indeed we are seeking a solution) to portray this as a zero-sum game. One side doesnt have to lose...I just think the solution (if there is one) is difficult to achieve.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    The aclu is monitoring the potential abuse of immigrants by an armed gang. An armed gang with the intent to confront people based on their skin color is NOT a protected form of speech.
    I see...and the ACLU's support of the Nazi's march in Skokie is different because....?

    The only "armed gang" I've read about associated with this story are members of MS-13...a real "armed gang" that commits heinous violent crimes here in Northern Virginia and across the country. They have sworn to kill these citizens that are acting 100% legally while supporting law enforcement and protesting our lax border security.

    As far as that "$1.00 head of lettuce", well, that's what we pay at the store. The real cost, when factoring in crime, health care, social services, etc. is much, much more.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    I started this thread to address your aclu issues along with my issues regarding this here.

    The aclu is monitoring the potential abuse of immigrants by an armed gang. An armed gang with the intent to confront people based on their skin color is NOT a protected form of speech.

    Obviously the vigilantes are causing more harm than good. The point is, Americans are used to a $1/head lettuce prices and corporations are used to less than minimum wage janitorial crrews. Until they're willing to pay a fair wage, our economy and illegals will be entwined.
    MinuteMen don't carry guns.
  10.    #10  
    Adding to my point regarding the dependency on illegal labor and our food production.

    There is only one reason i can think of that someone would lose a finger in a meat packing plant and the meat still make it to a Wendy's. The person who lost the finger was an illegal worker and did not alert anyone for fear of losing their job.
    .
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    Now, onto the rabid aclu hating. I believe this statement is within the stated purpose of the aclu:

    ""We recognize the right of a country to defend its borders," said Eleanor Eisenberg, Executive Director of the ACLU of Arizona, "but it must be done by the proper authorities and in a humane way. Too many migrants, coming to this country for the jobs we offer, have died in the desert from heat, dehydration and exhaustion. It would be even more tragic to have migrants die as a result of violence."

    In the past, the Minuteman sponsoring organization is alleged to have engaged in activities that go beyond First Amendment-protected activity and that is intended to intimidate, harass or otherwise interfere with the rights of others. Many immigrant advocacy groups, including the ACLU, have expressed concern that members of white supremacist and other hate organizations will be participating and may trigger violence.

    The anticipated mix beginning on April 1 will include Minutemen, counter-protesters, demonstrators in support of the human rights of migrants, Border Patrol and FBI agents, and possibly local authorities. The ACLU of Arizona will provide legal observers as it has for other events. The observers are neutral observers and recorders and not participants, noted ACLU of Arizona Board President Stan Furman, a former Arizona State Senator.

    "The First Amendment protects the rights of all to speak, gather and protest," said Furman, emphasizing that the ACLU has often represented the interests of those with whom it strongly disagrees. "We have no intention of preventing the Minutemen or other protesters from engaging in constitutionally-protected first amendment activity. However, we are also concerned that protesters not engage in activity that violates the civil rights of others."

    Toward this end, the ACLU has urged the FBI and other law enforcement agencies to take an active role in preventing such abuses. At the same time, Furman said that the legal observers will monitor Minuteman activity and note any abuses of migrants to determine if legal action is warranted to protect against civil rights abuses and other possible criminal violations. "
  11. #11  
    "However, we are also concerned that protesters not engage in activity that violates the civil rights of others."

    Does he mean like the MoveOn.Org protestors and others of that ilk?

    And DA, did you see the thread I started about the life the Minute Men has already saved?

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...ad.php?t=80316
  12.    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttrundle
    MinuteMen don't carry guns.
    "...Many of the volunteers are armed with handguns, which are legal in Arizona as long as the weapon is not concealed. Simcox said he has given the men strict orders not to use their guns. "I told everyone we're to spot and report," he explained. "We're to be vigilant, alert, observant and to report suspicious activity to appropriate authorities."..."
  13.    #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    "However, we are also concerned that protesters not engage in activity that violates the civil rights of others."

    Does he mean like the MoveOn.Org protestors and others of that ilk?

    And DA, did you see the thread I started about the life the Minute Men has already saved?
    Cite please.

    and

    Nope.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    "...Many of the volunteers are armed with handguns, which are legal in Arizona as long as the weapon is not concealed. Simcox said he has given the men strict orders not to use their guns. "I told everyone we're to spot and report," he explained. "We're to be vigilant, alert, observant and to report suspicious activity to appropriate authorities."..."
    Open carry of firearms is PERFECTLY legal in Arizona. Given the gang threats against them, the drug traffickers in the desert, etc. it is probably a good idea to be packing.

    Again, DA, these are AMERICAN CITIZENS acting LAWFULLY in a protest of their government's FAILURE to secure our borders. This legal activity comes under the scrutiny of the ACLU, while the violent tendencies of the MoveOn.Org crowd go un-checked.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas
    Cite please.

    and

    Nope.

    http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/border/68659.php
  16.    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Open carry of firearms is PERFECTLY legal in Arizona. Given the gang threats against them, the drug traffickers in the desert, etc. it is probably a good idea to be packing.

    Again, DA, these are AMERICAN CITIZENS acting LAWFULLY in a protest of their government's FAILURE to secure our borders. This legal activity comes under the scrutiny of the ACLU, while the violent tendencies of the MoveOn.Org crowd go un-checked.
    Did you notice I was responding to someone else who stated they don't carry guns?
  17.    #17  
    I'm glad they helped someone in the desert but I was asking you to cite this: "Does he mean like the MoveOn.Org protestors and others of that ilk?"
  18. #18  
    Again, why are the Minute Men being singled out for scrutiny from the ACLU, when organizations like MoveOn.Org, ANSWER, etc. have repeatedly used violence in their protests? (How much of downtown Seattle got trashed by those guys?) The question is plainly stated and I suspect that, as usual, that you'll plainly duck it. Again.

    And again I invite your comments on the "Why are Democrats getting FLOGGED all over the country" thread. I think we would all benefit from your insight and input.
  19.    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911sforever
    Again, why are the Minute Men being singled out for scrutiny from the ACLU, when organizations like MoveOn.Org, ANSWER, etc. have repeatedly used violence in their protests? (How much of downtown Seattle got trashed by those guys?) The question is plainly stated and I suspect that, as usual, that you'll plainly duck it. Again.

    And again I invite your comments on the "Why are Democrats getting FLOGGED all over the country" thread. I think we would all benefit from your insight and input.
    Give the FLOGGED thread a rest. Unless you're into that sort of thing.

    I'm ducking nothing. What's our point with MoveOn.org and the ACLU not monitoring them. You're referring to a comparison with the MM but I don't see it.
  20. #20  
    No. As long as you keep posting about what a messed up country this is, how everything is wrong, and how Republicans are evil I won't give the flogged thread a rest. Have you examined why your world view is so unpopular?

    My point about the MoveOn and ANSWER types is that their protests ALWAYS degenerate into violence, yet the ACLU doesn't monitor them. What is the difference...you tell me.
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