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  1. #161  
    One more thing about what will happen to Terry Schiavo if her "feeding" tube will not be reinserted. You will read ghoulish description of her starving to death and dying a horrible, cruel death. This is nonsense of course. As everybody knows, the body can live for many weeks without food, so she will die of dehydration. Is that painful?

    Not at all. In reality, many people choose to die that way, even fully conscious patients. Terminal dehydration is a common thing in medicine. Death occurs within a few days, but it can also take up to three weeks. It is NOT painful. You can find some details here. The article discusses physician-assisted suicide vs. deliberate, chosen terminal dehydration of fully conscious people (which isn't even the case with Terry Schiavo). You can also find newspaper articles here or here.

    I take the meaningless, but horrifying stories about what will happen to Terry Schiavo as another example of how some people try to manipulate public opinion for their own goals.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  2. #162  
    Egads!! I agree with both Clu AND daThomas about something?? Forget World Jump Day, the planet has indeed already shifted off it's axis!!
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  3. #163  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    Egads!! I agree with both Clu AND daThomas about something?? Forget World Jump Day, the planet has indeed already shifted off it's axis!!
    Be grateful!
    You don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing.
    -Michael Pritchard
  4. #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I take the meaningless, but horrifying stories about what will happen to Terry Schiavo as another example of how some people try to manipulate public opinion for their own goals.
    I agree with you Clu.
    This is a profoundly sad story. I can understand the pain and anguish on both arguing sides, and no one can really claim “victory”. There’s a place in heaven for Terry Schiavo, once she gets there, and it is full of tears and freedom.
    You don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing.
    -Michael Pritchard
  5.    #165  
    I rescind my previous position on this case and align myself with the views of clulup here. you are absolutely correct. there it is. enough said.
  6. #166  
    clu where were you with this post on Saturday when this thread started? Coulda ended it all right there.

    Those last two posts of yours were well written and very informative. I think that about sums it up perfectly.
  7.    #167  
    agreed. I don't think It could have been articulated any better. consider the dilemma resolved.
  8. #168  
    I try to always recognize when someone knows more about something than I. I will usually yield to the analysis of an expert over my own gut. That said, it is really hard to watch the videos of Terri and not think there is something in that head of hers that is still human. I have to keep telling myself that there is nothing there, but at the same time...
  9. #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by KRamsauer
    I try to always recognize when someone knows more about something than I. I will usually yield to the analysis of an expert over my own gut. That said, it is really hard to watch the videos of Terri and not think there is something in that head of hers that is still human. I have to keep telling myself that there is nothing there, but at the same time...
    But, to be fair, all we see is the same five second clip of her. Why is it just that one? Surely there must be more footage than this. Why not anything recent leading up to this? You'd think the Schindlers would be video taping every spent moment with her to prove to the world that she is not PVS.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  10.    #170  
    I hear you, kurt
  11. #171  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    But, to be fair, all we see is the same five second clip of her. Why is it just that one? Surely there must be more footage than this. Why not anything recent leading up to this? You'd think the Schindlers would be video taping every spent moment with her to prove to the world that she is not PVS.
    Actually I watched 4 or 5 clips of approximately 45 seconds each. But I understand what you mean. And I was thinking that while watching them. Just part of the struggle between my personal brain (she is not there) and everything else (but look at her).
  12. Talldog's Avatar
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    #172  
    Based on what I've read, there is not a consensus that Terri Shiavo is PVS. Some doctors like William Hammesfahr and others have testified to the contrary. There are attacks and counterattacks on peoples' credibility and motivations, but the book is certainly not closed on whether or not she is PVS.

    As far as partisan hypocrisy, sure some conservatives/Republicans are hypocrites, but many liberals/Democrats who've suddenly become born-again champions of states' rights after years of fighting that principle (most notably with regard to abortion) are just as hypocritical. But that's beside the point because motivation should take a back seat to fact. In the early 60s, many states had laws designed to keep blacks from voting. When Congress passed the Voting Rights Act of 1965, it trampled on states' rights. There were accusations of political opportunism and hypocrisy that were just as accurate then as they are now, but I don't think that anyone here would argue that the Voting Rights Act shouldn't have been passed just because the politicians' motives weren't pure. Sometimes, that's how bad laws get changed in this country.

    In this case, that bad law is one that allows the decision about whether to end a person's life to be made by someone who may not have that person's best interests at heart. It seems that a lot of people have uncritically accepted the notion that Michael Shiavo is just a loving husband who wants to do what is best for his wife, but there is a lot of information publically available that suggests otherwise. Based on the information that is publically known, I'm not prepared to condemn Michael Shiavo, but I certainly have serious reservations about his motives. To me, his conflicts of interest, combined with the fact there are doctors who disagree with the courts are enough reason to err on the side of life. It's a slippery slope when people get to decide whether another person's life is worth living. It's not hard to imagine someone having an ill parent put to death so as to not fritter away the inheritance on medical care. I remember reading something about that happening not too long ago (either in Oregon or The Netherlands), but I can't remember the details.

    BTW, does anyone know anything about Heidi Law or Carla Sauer Iger? These women were caregivers for Terri Shiavo in the past who signed affidavits regarding her care. I've read these affidavits, and they suggest to me that a) Terri is not, or at least was not PVS, b) that no efforts were made to rehabilitate her, and in fact, they were forbidden to engage in rehabilitative activities, and c) that Michael Shiavo seemed to want to be rid of his wife. I don't know if these women have political agendas, but they signed sworn affidavits, meaning that they were willing to expose themselves to legal jeopardy if they were found to be lying. That give them at least the presumption of credibility, in my eyes.
    Talldog
  13. Talldog's Avatar
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    #173  
    One other thing, evidence is growing that the memo supposedly distributed by Republican senators detailing the political advantage to be gained in this case may be fake.

    http://powerlineblog.com/archives/2005_03.php#009953

    Yes, I know these guys are conservatives, but the post makes some excellent points.
    Talldog
  14. #174  
    I guess they could always do what they did in Nederland, CO. Shove her in a cryogenic freezer and drag her out someday if they can figure how to turn the lights back on.



    "Bredo Morstoel, a Norwegian, was frozen solid by his grandson in a bizarre cryonics experiment in 1983. Since then, the world-famous....well...stiff has been lying under 800 pounds of dry ice in a TUFF SHED behind his grandsons’ castle-like house in the 9000-ft Colorado ski town of Nederland. The grandson, Trygve Bauge, has long since been deported back to Norway, but Grandpa Bredo has remained, unwittingly becoming a worldwide symbol of the legal rights of the temporarily dead...."

    "Grandpa Bredo”, as he is affectionately known by local residents, was flown to America and cryogenically frozen after his death in Norway over a decade ago. He gained world fame when his grandson Trygve Bauge was deported and his mother Aud was concerned about how they would manage “the bodies” when she also left for Norway. After the political and media frenzy, the town government decided that Bredo could remain in a shed in the mountains and be maintained on dry ice indefinitely. The Tuff Shed company of Denver stepped up and provided sturdy housing for Grandpa."

    Last edited by clairegrrl; 03/23/2005 at 08:15 PM.
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  15. #175  
    Quote Originally Posted by clairegrrl
    The grandson, Trygve Bauge, has long since been deported back to Norway, but Grandpa Bredo has remained, unwittingly becoming a worldwide symbol of the legal rights of the temporarily dead...."
    The temporarily dead?!?!?

    And has anyone seen Ted Williams lately? I think he's lost his head...so to speak..over this whole cryogenics fiasco.
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  16. #176  
    Quote Originally Posted by Insertion
    The temporarily dead?!?!?

    And has anyone seen Ted Williams lately? I think he's lost his head...so to speak..over this whole cryogenics fiasco.
    What a chilling experience
    Well behaved women rarely make history
  17. #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by Talldog
    One other thing, evidence is growing that the memo supposedly distributed by Republican senators detailing the political advantage to be gained in this case may be fake.

    http://powerlineblog.com/archives/2005_03.php#009953

    Yes, I know these guys are conservatives, but the post makes some excellent points.
    Wait, wait! Let me guess...the memo was faxed to them from a Kinkos in Texas?
  18. #178  
    Talldog...you raise some good points about Michaels possible motivations along with the sworn affidavits of the caregivers.

    However, all these facts were probably brought out in the numerous trials over the last 8+ years (assuming competent legal representation). I am not saying that Judges will not come to poorly reasoned decisions but after you have exhausted all your appeals, you shouldn't get another 'bite at the apple' by circumventing state law and going through Congress. I feel for the parents but somewhere along the line, a Judge thought that this is what Terry wanted (at least I HOPE it is). Terry has been through so much...I pray that God receives her with open arms.
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  19.    #179  
    well said.
  20. #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joebar
    clu where were you with this post on Saturday when this thread started? Coulda ended it all right there.

    Those last two posts of yours were well written and very informative. I think that about sums it up perfectly.
    Thanks. But think of all the things we would have missed if the thread would have ended last Saturday: Clairegrrl and treobk214 starting a fight and falling in love again, Insertion and treobk214 agreeing with me and daThomas... It was really a miraculous chain of events, wasn't it? I found it great of treobk214 to openly declare that he changed his mind and shares one of my views. I found that really nice, no joke or irony here, so thanks to treobk214, too.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
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